Warped .303 cases

My last posting tonight in the older thread explains "why" the cases warp, you have the warped banana shaped case.
Now read my other posting and learn "why".

Do not believe anyone who tells you the chamber is off center, the problem is thin civilian cases fired in a larger military chamber.
I first saw this same thing in a Springfield 03-A3 and Remington brass that drove me crazy with once fired warped cases and I thought I was doing something wrong when resizing. There is a reason why military brass is made heavy duty.
 
ilikeoldguns said:
Oh for god's sakes! How did you find that? I searched for .303, Enfield, warped and I plumbed through the forums manually! Thank you!
Click to expand...

Click on your user name in any of your posts or at the top of the page (right side) then click view profile. On the left hand side it will list posts by you and threads by you. Click on threads by you and it will list all the ones you started.
 
old enfields said:
The catnthehat has it right. These are battle rifles that have generous chambers so that they a filth tolerant. That lean is very common to the Lee Enfield rifles. I neck size and try not to worry about it. The cases wont last much past 5 loadings before they start to separate.

If you are only loading for one Rifle and it isn't an EAL I would use a Lee Collet die. It will help extend the life of the case.
If you have an eal you will need to full length size and live with the shortened life cycle of your brass.
Click to expand...

Why would a EAL be different?
 
I found a whole bunch like that left by a guy who was firing a brutally sporterized (chopped, shortenned, and with the mag cut-down) Mk 4 which he had just inherited from a dead relative.

He let me fire it once, and it kicked like a mule even with the rubber back-pad. Quite unpleasant compared to the full wood/metal version, and lots of barrel rise.

I was happy to get a few dozen shinny casings for reloading, but when I got them home they all had the same banana-shape with a pinch-in ring starting on the stretch side about 1/4" from the base. I could have full-sized them, but with the ring starting like that I didn't think they'd survive another cycle.

Pity really. They all went to the scrap yard for $1/lb.

I remember wishing I'd noticed this while at the range, as I could have mentioned it to the fellow and encouraged him to the have the rifle looked at by a professional before it spent too much more time near his face.

A bit of uneven expansion is no big deal, but he was firing new ammo and taking it to starting-to-tear in a single cycle.
 
Below is a once fired factory loaded Winchester .303 British case fired in a No.4 Enfield rifle with the headspace set at approximately .0665 And within SAAMI limits. The case stretched and thinned .009 the first time it was fired because commercial cases are not made to military standards. British military headspace standards are .064 minimum and .074 maximum with .084 being emergency wartime maximum headspace. As long as the rifle meets military headspace standards I do not worry about the shorter SAAMI standards and fireform the brass to fit the chamber and neck size only. This is because longer bolt heads are hard to find and once the case is fireformed for your chamber and headspaceing on the shoulder of the case the word headspace becomes meaningless.

IMGP4521-1_zpsa603b8a2.jpg


IMGP5204-1_zps5590eee6.jpg


Below a rubber o-ring is slipped over the case and holds the case against the bolt face so the case will not stretched when fired.

o-ring_zpsfc086c19.jpg


After fire forming the shoulder holds the case against the bolt face and the case is only neck sized.

zeroheadspace_zpsbaf7579c.jpg


Bottom line, don't blame the rifle, civilian cases are not made as robustly as military cases and can't take the stress of firing in military chambers.
 
Kman303 said:
These questions come up fairly often, do any of our more experienced members feel like creating a sticky on Lee Enfield headspace?
Click to expand...

If you look at a SAAMI chamber and cartridge diagram minimum headspace is .010 less than maximum. In actuality the GO and NO-GO gauges are the recommended .003 plus and minus starting point for adjusting headspace on new firearms.

You don't have a headspace problem, you have a problem with American designed SAAMI cases fired in a British military rifle with a headspace setting of .064 minimum and .074 maximum. American made SAAMI cases are designed for .003 between the GO and NO GO gauges and my Winchester cases still stretched .009 the first time the factory loaded cartridge was fired.

Bottom line, these commercial cases are not made to military standards and are not made Ford Truck Tough. I had the same problem with many of my milsurp rifles at the longer headspace settings with commercial brass. Do not blame the Enfield rifle for cases designed for chamber pressures under 43,000 cup that stretch badly when loaded to higher pressures. The commercial ammunition is downloaded due to all the older Enfield rifles still being used today and are weaker than military cases. It is my understanding that Prvi Parizan cases are made to military standards because they are still supplying .303 British military grade ammunition to third world countries.
 
I get the occasional one as well, set them aside and fl size them later, use the o ring trick to fire form and neck size from there. I mostly shoot reduced loads of cast but when fire forming I use min loads with jacketed or paper patched bullets. Haven't had any issues and am up to 10 firings on some brass. It doesn't hurt to have a broken case extractor in your range box!
 
Okay, so finally loaded up my first batch of .303

My O-rings are too-big, so I had to do without this time and get some small elastics for next time, but I was generally happy with their performance.

I used:

FC cases, which I think I am full-length sizing. In another thread, someone mentioned how far-back I bump the shoulder, but I never did find out how to find that out.

CCI Lg rifle primers (An old box I had)

39.5 gr IMR 4320 (Lyman 49 ed starting load)

150gr SP bullet (hornady)

I did however have my first case separation;

 
ilikeoldguns said:
Okay, so finally loaded up my first batch of .303

My O-rings are too-big, so I had to do without this time and get some small elastics for next time, but I was generally happy with their performance.

I used:

FC cases, which I think I am full-length sizing. In another thread, someone mentioned how far-back I bump the shoulder, but I never did find out how to find that out.

CCI Lg rifle primers (An old box I had)

39.5 gr IMR 4320 (Lyman 49 ed starting load)

150gr SP bullet (hornady)

I did however have my first case separation;

Click to expand...

Interesting place to separate. To me it usually happens closer to the base, or I get the longitudinal cracks.
 
Below is a photo of a "recessed" Remington 700 bolt face, this type of recessed bolt face holds and centers the rear of the case in the chamber.

firingpin20001_zpsnjkgah68.jpg


Below is a Enfield bolt head, it is not recessed, nor does it hold and center the cartridge in the rear of the chamber. When the bolt is closed the extractor moves to the right and away from the rim of the case allowing the case to lay in the bottom of the chamber. When fired the case will expand more on the thin side of the case and push downward on that side of the case. This is what causes the case to lean to one side.

IMGP6308a-1_zpsk2xxsglj.jpg


Because the design of the Enfield bolt head it allows the cartridge to lay in the bottom of the chamber.

Commercial American SAAMI .303 British cases run on the small side of allowable base diameter.

Enfield chambers in 1914 were reamed larger in diameter and longer to the chambers shoulder. This was done because of a ammunition scandal in England over who was awarded contracts to produce ammunition for the military. Some of the ammunition was so poorly made it would not chamber in the standard Enfield chamber. And this the main reason the chambers were reamed larger. When you combined the poorly made ammunition and the dirty, muddy conditions of WWI trench warfare you can see why the chambers were reamed larger.

If your cases are warped and appear to be leaning then throw them in the trash, if you full length resize these type cases the base of the case will no longer be 90 degrees to the axis of the bore. (warped banana shaped case) Meaning the reloaded cases will cause the bullet to be out of alignment with the bore and your group size will increase.

This is where correctly fire forming your cases comes into play and centering the rear of the case in the chamber. When using the rubber o-ring method it important to use the correct size/diameter o-ring for the cartridge to chamber. The o-ring will hold the case against the bolt face and prevent the case from stretching. The second benefit of using a rubber o-ring is when the o-ring is compressed and becomes oval shaped it "centers" the case in the rear of the chamber. This allows the case to expand equally around the circumference of the base of the case.

When resizing your .303 British cases you should neck size only and let the case headspace on its shoulder and not the rim.

Below the o-ring holds the case against the bolt face and centers the case in the rear of the chamber.

o-ring_zpsfc086c19.jpg


Below once the case has been fire formed to the chamber you should only neck size, the cases shoulder will then hold the case against the bolt face.

zeroheadspace_zpsbaf7579c.jpg


I found the photo below in Google Images and can't remember who or what forum it was posted in. (sorry)
The case below is the worst I have ever seen and I think the case is a Prvi Partizan which is one of the best cases for reloading the .303 British.
The point being the case below was fired in a very oversized chamber and the rifle should be a wall hanger. I say this not because this rifle is dangerous to shoot, I say this because I reload and any cartridge case fired in this rifle is now junk and not worth reloading.

warped%20.303%20case_zps1wchhuch.jpg
 
A cure to warped cases on a Lee Enfield action is to first install a quality barrel with a match chamber and set the headspace at .002" and to best accomplish this by using the Brewer barrel locking system as first employed by Savage and now followed by Ruger, Remingtion, Marlin and other makers. They all finally saw the light in this system and it allows the home tinkerer to install and set up headspace without the extra lathe work and re-cutting of chambers to get the job right.

My Enfields are super easy on brass & shoot true at their intended ranges.

.45 ACP "cat dumper"
View attachment 60624

.32-40 Win. "squirrel remover"
View attachment 60625
 
wce323078 said:
so what size o ring is best?
Click to expand...

That depends on your headspace setting and rim thickness, it also depends on the type o-ring. What you are looking for is the thinest o-ring, smallest diameter you can find.

When you use too large of a diameter o-ring it will require more force to close the bolt. This will put excessive force on the bolt lugs and receiver lug recesses. This is why it is important to grease your bolt lugs when using the o-ring method.

I use reduced loads for fire forming, right now I use Trail Boss powder and 100 grain pistol bullets.

303pistolbjpg_zps9c6de94d.jpg


I'm sorry I can not give you a better answer on o-ring size, before I retired I had access to thousands of aircraft o-rings. Now I have to go to hardware stores hoping I can find o-rings small enough.

There are two other methods of holding the case against the bolt face for fire forming.

Creating a false shoulder, but with the Enfield chamber increasing the neck diameter stretches the neck far too much and leads to cracked necks.

Seating the bullets long and jamming them into the rifling to hold the case against the bolt face. The problem here is cordite throat erosion, meaning there may not be any rifling to push against.

Bottom line, use the smallest diameter o-ring you can find and grease your locking lugs to prevent galling the lugs.
 
ilikeoldguns said:
How do I tell if I am neck-sizing only?

I feel like this is a stupid question, but how do i set my dies to do that?
Click to expand...

Buy a neck sizing die,"some" reloaders raise the full length die and only size half the neck.

What is important to understand are civilian American SAAMI.303 British dies are far smaller than the Enfield military chamber. Meaning a full length die over resizes the case in diameter and shoulder length.

This is why SHELL SHUCKER in his post above re-barreled his rifle and set the headspace at .002.

Below is a fired .303 British case in my SAAMI Wilson case gauge, the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the Enfield chamber is.

under2-1_zpspdoccvu5.jpg


I neck size my cases and use a case forming and trim die to bump the shoulder back when the cases become hard to chamber. This die does not touch the body or neck of a fired case and only contacts the case shoulder.
 
Potashminer said:
Although some claim to be able to "partial size" with a full length die, you would usually "neck size" by using a neck sizing die, not a full length sizing die.
Click to expand...


a partial size is done by watching the neck and only resizing most of the neck instead of the whole neck . I like to resize 2/3's to 3/4's of the neck .

when you do this your also not fully resizing the rest of the case when using a full length die . some rifles have no issues , it may be possible other might need the full resizing .

there is no "claim " involved . if you don't have a neck sizing die , this will work .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom