Lee Enfield strange butt plate,
- Thread starter gerard488
- Start date
Where's the trap door for the oiler and pull through? I'm thinking aftermarket Peshmerga/Khyber pass casting...what's it made out of? Aluminium?
Interesting. I've never seen one of those before, I was referring to a No1MkIII butt plate which looks near identical to the OP's minus the trap door.(and brass)
Here is a part from a post I found on another site
The gunmetal buttplate is one the changes identified by Ian Skennertonicon in the change from Mk1 to 1*. His list of 1* features is that the design is basically same as a Mk1 except the buttplate changes from steel without trap to gunmetal with trap,
The gunmetal buttplate is one the changes identified by Ian Skennertonicon in the change from Mk1 to 1*. His list of 1* features is that the design is basically same as a Mk1 except the buttplate changes from steel without trap to gunmetal with trap,
...it's weird that it's made of steel though, no? During war, (WW1 and 2 anyway) steel alloy was at a premium. The British have been using brass on butt plates going back to at least the Brown Bess, maybe even earlier, I dunno?
I know the (American) Savage LL #4Mk1's had aluminium butt plates due to war time expediency and material allocations...steel is like war time gold...to screw it to a rifle butt stock doesn't make much sense to me, but there it is none the less!?
Some additional information for you.
Ferrous iron ore (hematite) is one of the most abundant rock elements, constituting about 5% of the Earth’s crust and is the 4th most common element in the world. It is not really wartime gold, it is the most commonly used material in war because it's literally everywhere. Steel alloy is a different matter, some of the alloying elements of high grade alloys are rare, but that buttplate is likely forged from 1018 low carbon steel and AT BEST it was surface hardened with carbon.
Brass, on the other hand, is primarily made of Copper and Tin. BOTH of these materials were highly valued in wartime production. Tin is the expensive part of solder and copper is used extensively for wire, bullet jackets, shell casings, etc.
Aluminum, in WW2, was also at a premium. WW2 Enfield buttplates are made of Zamac, an alloy primarily made of zinc. The original alloy was invented by the germans and the exact composition includes Zink (zinc), Aluminium, Magnesium and Kupfer (copper).
Typical percentages of non-zinc elements:
Aluminum: 3.9-4.3%
Copper: 2.6-2.9%
Magnesium: 0.025-0.05%
The rest was inexpensive zinc that would be too soft without the alloying trace elements.
Here in Canada, we used forged steel buttplates on the Lee Enfield because we were not being bombed and didn;t need to resort to cheap castings made in de-centralized small workshops like the brits did.
This is what I was thinking and thanks for the excellent information!
But in light of:
Which begs the question: What's it doing on a No.4?
I'd like to see a forged steel Canadian butt plate on a Lee Enfield/ for a Lee Enfield (We're talking Long Branch right? Or perhaps there was another location?
).
Canadian No4Mk1 rifles (LB) had Brass Butt plates like all the rest.
American Lend/Lease No4Mk1 rifles had Aluminium ones...(whatever you want to call the alloy it's Aluminum to everyone but a metallurgist)
).Canadian No4Mk1 rifles (LB) had Brass Butt plates like all the rest.
American Lend/Lease No4Mk1 rifles had Aluminium ones...(whatever you want to call the alloy it's Aluminum to everyone but a metallurgist)
I'd like to see a forged steel Canadian butt plate on a Lee Enfield/ for a Lee Enfield (We're talking Long Branch right? Or perhaps there was another location?
Canadian No4Mk1 rifles (LB) had Brass Butt plates like all the rest.
American Lend/Lease No4Mk1 rifles had Aluminium ones...(whatever you want to call the alloy it's Aluminum to everyone but a metallurgist)
There is only 4% aluminum in those buttplates. Also, Savage wa not the only user. BSA and ROF Maltby also used zamac buttplates during the war. They are marked differently on the inside surface, but otherwise identical to Savage ones. You don't see that many brit zamak ones today as the brits went out of their way to change them to brass post-war.
The very great majority of Longbranch production used a blued steel buttplate that dimensionally was identical to the brass ones the brits used. If you see brass on a LB, it's usually a replacement. Some of the very late war LB's and post-war refurbs will have a parkerized steel buttplate.
Rather than argue about it, Tradex is selling a bunch right now still in the wartime packaging. Check here:
https://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/lee-enfield-no4-buttplate--
But these are not the same as the OP's buttplate which looks pre-WW1 to me.
Here's a couple of pics of a Sht LE Mk I buttplate i have. Like dannyd123 mentioned, i had also noticed the rounded tang in the OP pics, that's why i said ''possibly''.
I wasn't sure if mine was correct... so i didn't mention it... i dont know a lot about Mk I's... not much around anymore.
What i do know is they where only used from 1903 to 1907 and where quickly phased out and replaced for the Mk I*, I**, I*** models.
The oxidation and ''rust'' looks too good to be Kyber Pass in my opinion, but it is possibly from another model of rifle than an Enfield.
I wasn't sure if mine was correct... so i didn't mention it... i dont know a lot about Mk I's... not much around anymore.
What i do know is they where only used from 1903 to 1907 and where quickly phased out and replaced for the Mk I*, I**, I*** models.
The oxidation and ''rust'' looks too good to be Kyber Pass in my opinion, but it is possibly from another model of rifle than an Enfield.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
I'd like to see a forged steel Canadian butt plate on a Lee Enfield/ for a Lee Enfield (We're talking Long Branch right? Or perhaps there was another location?
Canadian No4Mk1 rifles (LB) had Brass Butt plates like all the rest.
American Lend/Lease No4Mk1 rifles had Aluminium ones...(whatever you want to call the alloy it's Aluminum to everyone but a metallurgist)
Sorry that is incorrect.
All production No4 Long Branch butt plates were zinc alloy ("zamac" or "diemac" depending on trade name of the manufacturer) from 1941 until late 1943/early? 1944.
The switch over to steel at LB seems to have been phased in during that period.
Most British wartime butt plates are zinc alloy until mid to late '44. Having said that, I just looked at an S prefix BSA no4T dated 1945 which retains it's original zinc butt plate.
All post war Long Branch butt plates are steel.
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Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
I still have at least 1 and possibly 2 similar butt plates, one was on a no4 butt and the other was loose.
I theorized that they were experimental, emergency, limited production, or mistakes.
Alternately, early sten mk5 butt plates were no4 pattern without butt traps.
Later Sten mk5 butt plates were simplified flat section plate.
