IRG Colt Le6933 with KAC accessories or colt Canada 11.6mrr

[greentips]

Kinda true.

For work sure they get dinged or crushed you get a new one. ( no cost.)

But for the gamer big bucks.

My favorite system is still the URX4. Feels the best in hand

Monolithic uppers in one piece with non-detachable lower portion, like the LMT MWS and Colt IUR, exist because of the desire to mount QD grenade launchers while keeping the barrels free floated.

The sopmod 2 back in the days went into great length to mount M203 without using the barrel as a mounting part, that was the start of the monolithic upper idea. That is why we ended up with these weird dimension and barrel nut like the DD RIS2 and KAC URX. If the GL is mounted solely to a detachable lower hand guard, it will not survive. It was also needed back then because a lot of M4s are still the non-heavy barrelled version.

Then the US signed up for the HK M320 GL, all a sudden no one cares about this anymore because these new double action GLs are so big, carrying it as a stand alone makes more sense. The Eagle launcher is pretty big too. Mounting these new DA GLs on rifles make the weapons very bulky.

Both LMT and CC are sticking to this type of monolithic uppers, because they both have QD GL launchers that go onto the rail directly. Since they go with this, they can have skinny barrels. HK doesn't care about being monolithic because they have decided to have 0.85" barrel for HK416 no matter what, and will use the gas block as the attachment point. SCAR's GL is QD, but the lower rail is attached to the barrel and the whole thing is bolted down to the upper from front to rear

It comes down to how the design people want to integrate the GL, but if the trend is to carry the GL as a standalone, the whole thing becomes a moot point.

The trend is not so much about being monolithic or not. The trend is about how GL will be carried and whether 40mm LV is still the way to go. The whole weapon design is concerning what the grenadier is supposed to do, dropping bombs full time or having a monster weapon that does not do everything well but ok on average.

 

[Epoxy7]

It says they bought the C8 before the IUR existed. But they'll probably replace the C8s with monolithic uppers, either MRRs or IURs, and there's plenty of police forces that have IURs (VPD for example) because they're JUST A THIRD OF A POUND HEAVIER. If the IUR was legitimately worse, explain why so many special operations units use them.

Also ERT is changing over to 300 blackout. So they were waiting for that to happen.

New York Trigger. Just "destroyed" your Glock argument.

Absolutely. The 12 pound new NY trigger came to my mind as well for Glock.

DId you though? First off an IUR rifle is not "1/3 the price." A 6920 costs what these days... $1900 CDN? Buying an ambi CC lower with all the fixins is $1300 and the uppers were eventually $600... which means the police are probably buying them for $1500 complete? That's probably pretty much on par with what it would cost for them to buy cheaper 6920s from Hartford, and import them. And that doesn't even begin to address the ways in which a CC gun is not only better than an M4, but also better for our environment. The chrome lining's thicker and more resistant to cracking in Canadian winter climates, the choked hammer-forged barrels are second to none, etc etc.

Also I will add that the C8IUR for the RCMP wasn't thought out by Beurocrats in Ottawa as Creamysmooth seems to think. The beuarocrats in Ottawa wouldn't have wanted a LMT sopmod gen2 stock, ergo grip and Gieselle trigger. The persons responsible for this carbine did a very good job. I was very surprised and impressed.

I'm not sure why I bothered replying in such depth to a post that refers to training doctrine as manual of arms... because anyone that can confuse "manual of arms" with "training doctrine" or "tactics" is not someone that I'd trust to tell me what sort of rifle to buy.

That was actually my fault. I used the term. No doubt incorrectly. Sorry about that. I considered it manual of arms because it was done on the line, essentially in formation. But you are right it's training doctrine would be a more accurate term. Again my fault on that one.

 

[Epoxy7]

I haven't got time to go through all your points on my iPhone. But I'll give you my points.

-Manual of arms.... The RCMP just made drastic changes to thier courses of fire to start compensating for the fact that they practiced for target shooting, not a gunfight. Movement was added this year. Target shooting was the mindset in Ottawa when the IUR was chosen. Members are rapidly realizing they have the wrong weapon again. This isn't my opinion. Thank the lord a union is coming.

Later.

Drifter nailed it with your other points. But I want to address this one. You are once again WRONG! Honestly I think a broken clock is right more often than you are. They actually changed the pistol course of fire this year due to the carbine course as the old target shooting course of fire wasn't matching up with the CQB gunfighter carbine course. With regards to the carbine course, they added movement into it but lost some of the other points. Many who took and those who taught have stated that the old gunfighter course of fire was better for the carbine. The newer course is easier than the older carbine course.

CreamySmooth, I appreciate your enthusiasm but honestly you have gotten more wrong with your posts than right. That included some of your previous ideas regarding my knowledge on this subject.

 

[Zeroed-In]

And what's wrong with my Avatar....

Nothing at all, it's a great likeness of yourself (you may want to give your chest hairs a trim though) and I really liked your work (or should I say dancing) in that most excellent movie "Tropic Thunder".

Regardless Epoxy has you in his sights once again.

Cheers D

 

[CreamySmooth]

Lots of good academic replays, no one seems to have any firsthand use or knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-The IUR is heavier. As I've said, a small amount matters. But the real problem with the IUR is its awkwardness. The rails catch, the bulk is awkward. First hand use. This is coming to be a very prevalent opinion, no matter what you guys blather on about. Greentips post really explains this well. No GL's on RCMP carbines.

-the added parts: the trigger is very nice. The grip is turning out to be too big for many shooters. Again no thought. A standard a2 would have been better.

-the New York Trigger was developed as a transition tool for moving from a revolver trigger to an auto. The perceived idea that it should be kept in place by some police forces is a poor excuse for poor training. If this is your argument, that geiselle that is on the CC rifles was chosen why? Why not NY that as well? Instead of lightening it.

-the only part of the pistol course was changed to implement modern combat techniques and movement. The ONLY portion that was specifically changed to match up was the wonderful "workspace" reloads and the ready position. And yes, the new carbine course is easier by design. The gunfighter course was poorly designed for standard frontline members, most with zero experience on a carbine or anything other than work firearms. The current pistol course changes every year now to be better able to adapt.

-ERT was shooting .300 blackout in non-CC guns earlier. They were very nice.

-manual of arms... Really? This is a sticking point with you? I honestly didn't think you wanted to discuss drill. Drifter, you shouldn't be supporting Epoxy when he doesn't know the difference....

-Yer so off on price. When the trigger and sight is added its up just shy of 5900. Shocking hey? It's a huge point for me.

Your opinion as a CC fanboy is highly slanted with no consideration for alternatives or ways to do things better. Humping an IUR through the bushes chasing someone doesn't work. If you do have any actual experience I fail to see it here. Looks like googling and magazine reading. I put forth the idea that the IUR is a solution for no problem. But then Greentips answered that. I agree a regular CC would be better, but several others option of lighter, easier to carry firearms is available, which also work better for police use... Which is not a prolonged firefight.


And thanks for going for the personal zeroed. Helps out a lot when you just pile on with nothing constructive for a discussion.

 

[Epoxy7]

Lots of good academic replays, no one seems to have any firsthand use or knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again you're wrong.

-The IUR is heavier. As I've said, a small amount matters. But the real problem with the IUR is its awkwardness. The rails catch, the bulk is awkward. First hand use. This is coming to be a very prevalent opinion, no matter what you guys blather on about. Greentips post really explains this well. No GL's on RCMP carbines.

The rails don't catch. They have Ergo ladders on them. You should have known that if you have first hand use of one.

-the added parts: the trigger is very nice. The grip is turning out to be too big for many shooters. Again no thought. A standard a2 would have been better.

$350 trigger. Darn right it's nice. The ergo grip was pretty good. It wasn't too big for many shooters. As many shoot and are likely to shoot during the course of their duties without gloves, it is a nice grip. Even so on day 4 of the course many have to resort to using duct tape battle bandages. An A2 would be hell.

-the New York Trigger was developed as a transition tool for moving from a revolver trigger to an auto. The perceived idea that it should be kept in place by some police forces is a poor excuse for poor training. If this is your argument, that geiselle that is on the CC rifles was chosen why? Why not NY that as well? Instead of lightening it.

The 5946 that New York also authourizes for carry is also 12 pounds as is the 5946 carried by the RCMP. The carbine doubles as a designated marksman weapon for the Police before ERT is called out. As with the Win 70 rifles you mentioned before. They also didn't have 12 pound triggers since they were used for distance, designated marksman/containment.

-the only part of the pistol course was changed to implement modern combat techniques and movement. The ONLY portion that was specifically changed to match up was the wonderful "workspace" reloads and the ready position. And yes, the new carbine course is easier by design. The gunfighter course was poorly designed for standard frontline members, most with zero experience on a carbine or anything other than work firearms. The current pistol course changes every year now to be better able to adapt.

Thanks for just repeating what I basically said only with a bit more detail. The gunfighter course was better.

-ERT was shooting .300 blackout in non-CC guns earlier. They were very nice.

As part of a test program. They are only now getting ready to commit to them force wide. Again, goes against your point. If they order up the new ones as non monolithic uppers then you will have a point. Right now, you don't.

-manual of arms... Really? This is a sticking point with you? I honestly didn't think you wanted to discuss drill. Drifter, you shouldn't be supporting Epoxy when he doesn't know the difference....

-Yer so off on price. When the trigger and sight is added its up just shy of 5900. Shocking hey? It's a huge point for me.

He wasn't supporting me. He was simply showing that your argument is garbage on many fronts. The fact that more than one person believes this isn't a matter of "support".

Your opinion as a CC fanboy is highly slanted with no consideration for alternatives or ways to do things better. Humping an IUR through the bushes chasing someone doesn't work. If you do have any actual experience I fail to see it here. Looks like googling and magazine reading. I put forth the idea that the IUR is a solution for no problem. But then Greentips answered that. I agree a regular CC would be better, but several others option of lighter, easier to carry firearms is available, which also work better for police use... Which is not a prolonged firefight.

You've done patrol with a C8IUR rifle then? Or is this just more guess work? Have you carried one for a 12 hour shift? .

 

[mikethebike]

Goddamn the danish army uses these! why the fack do we think they are inadequate?

fack this thread is mind blowning

like i said before I have 4 ars, and just bought another in 9mm, i love my 4 ars and I'm sure to love the baby brother too

 

[xdmer]

Well, maybe we should let the yellow snow melt, and get back on topic.

 

[CreamySmooth]

Well, maybe we should let the yellow snow melt, and get back on topic.

Agreed. Get the 6933.

 

[Stoner99]

Well, maybe we should let the yellow snow melt, and get back on topic.

No this is good

I love debates. Its related to the topic.

 

[Stoner99]

Agreed. Get the 6933.

Yeah i like my 6933. Its nice. But all these guns are designed to fit specific needs. In mamy situations i would choose something else. But too look cool 6933 does the trick.lol Its a classic.

 

[xdmer]

Of the two, my choice would be the LE6933, but without the KAC accessories.

 

[xdmer]

Oh but it's like necromancy of threads gone by. Some banter is good and I get the points, but personalities are coming through loud and clear

The whole operators going to operate is too rich, now let me troll the threat and say buy and XCR-L Mini ;p

No this is good

I love debates. Its related to the topic.

 

[Epoxy7]

Goddamn the danish army uses these! why the fack do we think they are inadequate?

fack this thread is mind blowning

like i said before I have 4 ars, and just bought another in 9mm, i love my 4 ars and I'm sure to love the baby brother too

Also New Zealand just picked the LMT mrp another monolithic AR platform. I actually do like my LMT rifles a bit more than the C8IUR but they are fairly close. Right now with everyone going for the DD rifles and CC, the second hand LMT rifles have been an absolute bargain.

 

[Epoxy7]

Oh but it's like necromancy of threads gone by. Some banter is good and I get the points, but personalities are coming through loud and clear

The whole operators going to operate is too rich, now let me troll the threat and say buy and XCR-L Mini ;p

I kind of figured every non contributing post you make was already doing that. No need to bring the XCR-L into it.

I think the banter is over. So no worries. Points have been made, I apologize if someone's feelings were hurt etc. This kind of stuff builds character.

 

[Zeroed-In]

Come on Creamy just having a little fun, I thought you had a thicker skin?

And thanks for going for the personal zeroed. Helps out a lot when you just pile on with nothing constructive for a discussion.

Regarding anything constructive towards the original intent of this thread, I offered that up to the OP long ago.

As is the state of this thread now, I at least know when to stay on the side lines as I have not had any operational experience with a C8IUR (my only official CC experience, if you can call it that is using a C7A1 in our Army Reserves) nor do I disagree with those known to have a vast knowledge on such subjects; i.e.. Epoxy7 & Greentips on all things AR...

Cheers D

 

[xdmer]

I guess your idea of trolling is much different than mine. I'm kind of serious about the xcr-l mini, it would be my choice. I had an SA 15.7 and IUR, ended up selling them both. Greentips made a great comment about the GL need with monolithic design to free float barrels.

The weight isn't so much the issue with the IUR but the bulk and balance is ... and I know the points CreamySmooth was making. Different carbines with fit peoples needs differently, not that most can't be setup to meet those needs. I wouldn't go MRR just on it's proprietary nature.

I could care less about the other points made.

I kind of figured every non contributing post you make was already doing that. No need to bring the XCR-L into it.

I think the banter is over. So no worries. Points have been made, I apologize if someone's feelings were hurt etc. This kind of stuff builds character.

 

[Epoxy7]

I guess your idea of trolling is much different than mine. I'm kind of serious about the xcr-l mini, it would be my choice. I had an SA 15.7 and IUR, ended up selling them both. Greentips made a great comment about the GL need with monolithic design to free float barrels.

The weight isn't so much the issue with the IUR but the bulk and balance is ... and I know the points CreamySmooth was making. Different carbines with fit peoples needs differently, not that most can't be setup to meet those needs. I wouldn't go MRR just on it's proprietary nature.

I could care less about the other points made.

That's interesting. The XCR-L and it's heavy barreled versions are monolithic platforms. I think you'll find it bulkier and heavier and with poorer balance than the rifles you sold. Plus nowhere near the accuracy potential. Reliability might also be a concern. Also it doesn't get anymore "proprietary in nature" than the XCR system. A bit odd that the very aspects you don't like with those AR rifles are the very features of the XCR that you are interested in.

I'm sorry to hear you don't care about the other points being made. There's some good information there. Might be worth taking another look before you embark on the propriety monolithic XCR platform!

 

[Zeroed-In]

I'm kind of serious about the xcr-l mini, it would be my choice. I had an SA 15.7 and IUR, ended up selling them both. Greentips made a great comment about the GL need with monolithic design to free float barrels.

The weight isn't so much the issue with the IUR but the bulk and balance is ... and I know the points CreamySmooth was making. Different carbines with fit peoples needs differently, not that most can't be setup to meet those needs. I wouldn't go MRR just on it's proprietary nature.

I could care less about the other points made.

Just as you do no care regarding "other points made" some here (myself included) will not take a liking to the thought of investing several thousand dollars into a XCR of any flavour.
Saying that I do believe we all add to the conversation even when we disagree. As your post above offers up several different concerns on the subject of firearms/AR's; such as weight, balance, design, proprietary nature etc. there are endless AR considerations of which we all have our favourite wants and needs...

Often times we as recreational shooters (not all, but most?) do not consider the needs or design parameters that a duty rifle or combat rifle must be considered for.

From full auto. fire to a service life of tens of thousands of rounds these are just a couple parameters that will need be considered in such a rifle. Weight or maneuverability may not be the first choices in a design as reliability to digest service ammo. while maintaining accuracy under rapid and sustained fire may take priority; which may never be considered in a commercially sold rifle.

What I get from our conversation and all points of view made, is an opportunity to learn and develop my own parameters of what is important for my needs in an AR/Black rifle and for that I thank all involved as it's appreciated.

Cheers D

 

[Epoxy7]

There are some advantages to sport shooters and police/military alike with these rifles that haven't been mentioned. With the monolithic uppers you don't have that weak link where the handguard connects to the receiver. There's are no worries about adding optics and not going over the gap. The monolithic platform with a good free floated barrel can aid in accuracy as the uppers is stiffer which helps with harmonics. As does a heavier barrel contour. Not only does this help with sustained fire but also with accurate fire. For the police officer finding themselves using that patrol carbine as a designated marksman rifle to the sport shooter going for that elusive sub moa group! You can add fore grips, lights and bipods with no fear of any torque on the handguard or the connection with the receiver. With carbines that don't have free float handguards, such as some that have been recommended, you have to worry about adding torque by using fore grips or bipods which can change the point of impact. One of the most well known examples of this is with the Swiss Arms PE-90/540/550 rifles. Using the bipod and putting any pressure on it can change the point of impact by an inch or two. That's not something that's conducive to accuracy! Similar things have occurred with AR rifles that don't have free floating handguards when a vertical fore grip is used. A couple things to think about.