barrel break in question?

[r204]

I guess it all depends on what you consider accuracy falling off means to you. Some shooters consider accuarcy is dropping of when there groups of .1 and .2 start to open up to .3 and .4 others consider accuary is dropping of when 1moa opens up to 2moa

 

[ruger22]

copy/paste from Howa:

For the first ten shots we recommend using copper jacketed factory ammo. Clean the oil and powder residue
out of the barrel before each shot using a commercial bore cleaner with an ammonia content. After firing
each cartridge, use a good bore cleaner (one with ammonia) to remove fouling from the barrel using only a
soaked patch. We do not recommend anything with an abrasive in it since you are trying to seal the barrel,
not keep it agitated.

For the firs ten rounds, clean and let the barrel cool between each round fired using a patch and rod only.

Following the initial ten shots, you then may shoot 2 rounds, cleaning between each pair of shots. This is
simply insuring that the burnishing process has been completed. In theory, you are closing the pores of the
barrel metal that have been opened and exposed due to the manufacturing process.

To keep the temperature cool in the barrel, wait at least 5 minutes between break-in shots. The barrel must
remain cool during the break-in procedure. If the barrel is allowed to heat up during the break-in, it will
impede the steel’s ability to develop a home registration point, or memory. It will have a tendency to make the
barrel “walk” or “climb” when it heats up in the future. If you take a little time in the beginning and do it right,
you will be much more pleased with the performance of your barrel in the future.

 

[ruger22]

About 10 years ago I bought a new cooper rifle.
Similar shoot and patch description was in the manual.

 

[Dogleg]

I was in a quandary about this very issue and had never heard of it prior to joining this forum. Which means I ignorantly went about my business buying and shooting new rifles without ever doing anything like what you guys describe. I did this for 35 years and 100s of rifles. When I read about this essential process, and realized I had never done any such thing, I thought I must be very blessed as I can distinctly remember only 2 rifles out of the hundreds that I just could not get to shoot acceptably. Feeling quite ignorant with this procedure I figured I'd ask the most experienced gun guru and barrel maker I knew, Bevan King. I won't quote him as that would get me an infraction, but I'll give you the jist of his response. He said that attempting to "break in" a button rifled or hammered forged barrel was a complete waste of time and components. He said that this old procedure was left over but still somewhat applied today, to cut rifled barrels. He said that the cutting process will leave some tool marks and rough edges and will not give it's best accuracy for several hundred rounds. For these same reasons they will tend to foul very quickly when new and hence the new barrel cleaning regime. He said that button rifling and hammer forging does not leave these tool marks and modern cut riflers almost always lap their barrels leaving absolutely no need to "break in" new barrels these days.
Given the respect I had for Bevan and the fact that he learned his barrel making skills directly from P.O. Ackley, I would have to say that I don't choose to break in new barrels and I don't do this on the advice of two of the greatest gun people, in my opinion, of our modern times, both of whom were notable barrel makers and gunsmiths.

Gaillard is definitely in the "barrel breakin is a joke" camp as well. Considering his barrel making and benchrest background I'm at peace with listening to him. Gail McMillan said the same.

There can be ulterior motives to suggesting breakin procedures. For one it might shut someone up for awhile, which has some value. Even saying that a barrel might shoot better after a couple hundred rounds does push the complaints back a ways; maybe a couple years or more for some shooters. By then the owner is bound to have finally got the barrel dirty enough to shoot.. With any luck at all he might never shoot that any. Even just making someone shoot a box of shells before they start obcessing about groups will burn the reamer burrs off the leades.

Cooper lists a break-in procedure, but if you take a different tack and ask them about test targets they come up with a test procedure that shows that they already shot around a box through it. Apparently they can shoot that many without cleaning but I'm supposed to break it in shot by shot afterwards? Sounds like snake-oil.

 

[scott_r]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW6SF-jlbkg

Video on Bartlein Barrel break in, #1 barrel in the PRS crowd.

 

[Hitzy]

I don't think it makes a lick of difference, but I'd bet your average joe will do more damage to their barrel following the break in procedure then just shooting it for the 20-50 round range session and cleaning once afterwards.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

The evidence is that the barrel makers are recomending a barrel brake in procedure . For some unknown reason I tend to trust what the makers of high quality match grade barrels are telling me. Do you really think that they just pulled these procedures out of the butt just for somthing to do? I brake in all my barrels, that is what I choose to do. If other people choose not to I could care less. What I don't agree with is peple telling others just to ignore the manufaturer's guidlines.

Two things:

1. Opinion, even expert opinion, is not evidence, period. Well, I take that back, it is the weakest form of evidence there is. Think what you want, but you're wrong. I gots me some trainin' in this area of thought. You'd think by now someone, like Brian Litz, would've done a proper comparative test of this.

2. Neither me, nor SkyPilot are telling anyone what to do. Our messages were both very clear: "this is what we do and think, you're more than welcome to do what you'd like".

GGG

ps - I'll do the test if someone will send me 10 new carbon copy unfired rifles to do them with. 5 in each group. Group one gets breakin procedure, group 2 does not, and then me and 4 - 5 of my CGN buddies blast 250 rounds down each barrel and measure groups. Now that would be evidence.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

I don't think it makes a lick of difference, but I'd bet your average joe will do more damage to their barrel following the break in procedure then just shooting it for the 20-50 round range session and cleaning once afterwards.

I wonder sometimes if leaning my rifles on their barrels in my safe could cause a subtle deflection??? I know it's just paranoia, but it crosses my (paranoid) mind.

GGG

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

A large portion of putting the round where it really counts, when it really counts is having confidence in the things you do leading up to that point.

If one feels confident in cleaning after every round, then do so for your peace of mind and confidence.

Or if the barrel will only shoot accurately when OEM clean, then always shoot once, then clean, shoot again. Benchrest shooters seem to lean that way and if it works for them fine.

That simply won't and doesn't work for me or any I shoot with. Nor do I know of any school that teaches that.

It is however a constant battle with superiors to clean rifles whether in LE or military duty. They would have you clean them every 15 minutes. It is a visual thing v a performance thing to them.

Shoot the gun with factory ammo for 40-50 rds minimum(I do 100) without getting barrel hot. Keep a barrel log or rounds fired. Zero the gun with your money round. Shoot the gun until accuracy begins to fade. Clean the gun somewhat and in a set procedure(10 strokes/20 strokes etc.) Check the clean cold bore shot. If it and the next few rounds are where they previously hit (prior CCB, etc.)before the cleaning, you are golden.

The goal is to end up with a seasoned barrel, clean it enough for the accuracy to come back, but not enough to degrade the accuracy of the CCB and susequent shots after a cleaning.

Some .308s go 500-1500 rds or longer before accuracy falls off.

However, when you are behind the barrel, it only really counts, when it really counts. So confidence in what you are doing prior to that is king.

Plus all that mojo that is being pushed about new barrel breakin would sound really impressive to a jury in a courtroom.

Is that a comment on how often urban sharpshooters get sued???

 

[Hitzy]

I wonder sometimes if leaning my rifles on their barrels in my safe could cause a subtle deflection??? I know it's just paranoia, but it crosses my (paranoid) mind.

GGG

Well it sounds like you have the same problem as me....only way I can get them all to fit in the safe is standing half of them on the barrel....lol.

 

[hometownhero]

I guess the some people seem to think that the guys over at Lilja, Krieger, Benchmark and a few other barrel makers don't have a clue as to what they are talking about.

Over clean the barrel, wear it out faster. Then you need to buy more barrels. They are a business and need to make money just like any other.

 

[Kevan]

Regardless of where the dust settles on this topic I shall continue doing what I do simply because its working for me.
End of story..

 

[j_06]

I wonder sometimes if leaning my rifles on their barrels in my safe could cause a subtle deflection??? I know it's just paranoia, but it crosses my (paranoid) mind.

GGG

If your barrels steel is malleable enough to deflect from leaning just imagine what a few thousand psi would do to it! Don't ever drop one! Might look end up like this!

 

[skypilot]

A large portion of putting the round where it really counts, when it really counts is having confidence in the things you do leading up to that point.

If one feels confident in cleaning after every round, then do so for your peace of mind and confidence.

Or if the barrel will only shoot accurately when OEM clean, then always shoot once, then clean, shoot again. Benchrest shooters seem to lean that way and if it works for them fine.

That simply won't and doesn't work for me or any I shoot with. Nor do I know of any school that teaches that.

It is however a constant battle with superiors to clean rifles whether in LE or military duty. They would have you clean them every 15 minutes. It is a visual thing v a performance thing to them.

Shoot the gun with factory ammo for 40-50 rds minimum(I do 100) without getting barrel hot. Keep a barrel log or rounds fired. Zero the gun with your money round. Shoot the gun until accuracy begins to fade. Clean the gun somewhat and in a set procedure(10 strokes/20 strokes etc.) Check the clean cold bore shot. If it and the next few rounds are where they previously hit (prior CCB, etc.)before the cleaning, you are golden.

The goal is to end up with a seasoned barrel, clean it enough for the accuracy to come back, but not enough to degrade the accuracy of the CCB and susequent shots after a cleaning.

Some .308s go 500-1500 rds or longer before accuracy falls off.

However, when you are behind the barrel, it only really counts, when it really counts. So confidence in what you are doing prior to that is king.

Plus all that mojo that is being pushed about new barrel breakin would sound really impressive to a jury in a courtroom.

Is that a comment on how often urban sharpshooters get sued???

Almost any type shooting nowadays brings out the bottom feeders and scavengers.

If they file suit, they usually sue from the lead sled dog all the way back to the musher.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

Regardless of where the dust settles on this topic I shall continue doing what I do simply because its working for me.
End of story..

Fair enough.

 

[Gunneegoogoo]

Almost any type shooting nowadays brings out the bottom feeders and scavengers.

If they file suit, they usually sue from the lead sled dog all the way back to the musher.

Very sad.

I bet that makes getting up and going to work and risking your @ss a really fun thing to do.....

-J.

 

[Rembo]

I was in a quandary about this very issue and had never heard of it prior to joining this forum. Which means I ignorantly went about my business buying and shooting new rifles without ever doing anything like what you guys describe. I did this for 35 years and 100s of rifles. When I read about this essential process, and realized I had never done any such thing, I thought I must be very blessed as I can distinctly remember only 2 rifles out of the hundreds that I just could not get to shoot acceptably. Feeling quite ignorant with this procedure I figured I'd ask the most experienced gun guru and barrel maker I knew, Bevan King. I won't quote him as that would get me an infraction, but I'll give you the jist of his response. He said that attempting to "break in" a button rifled or hammered forged barrel was a complete waste of time and components. He said that this old procedure was left over but still somewhat applied today, to cut rifled barrels. He said that the cutting process will leave some tool marks and rough edges and will not give it's best accuracy for several hundred rounds. For these same reasons they will tend to foul very quickly when new and hence the new barrel cleaning regime. He said that button rifling and hammer forging does not leave these tool marks and modern cut riflers almost always lap their barrels leaving absolutely no need to "break in" new barrels these days.
Given the respect I had for Bevan and the fact that he learned his barrel making skills directly from P.O. Ackley, I would have to say that I don't choose to break in new barrels and I don't do this on the advice of two of the greatest gun people, in my opinion, of our modern times, both of whom were notable barrel makers and gunsmiths.

I agree 100% with the above.

Years ago I chambered a new Bevan King barrel in 25-284 and went to the range without a cleaning rod. I put 46 rounds thru it without cleaning and it was a very good shooting rifle. It's gone thru two or three CGN owners and last I heard it was still shooting well, even after having a 260 round fired in it.

There are many barrel break in procedures out there but I think one could do just as well with this procedure followed by the wild man of Alaska.....AKA, Boxer on 24hourcampfire.

Link to highly technical video below, watch carefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

 

[cccan]

Having a rifle slide down the side of a Quad or pick up truck equal the break in procedure the Wild Man of Alaska uses?

 

[skypilot]

That's almost as good a breakin' or break-in as it gets in the trunk of a patrol Dodge Charger.

 

[chuck nelson]

I agree 100% with the above.

Years ago I chambered a new Bevan King barrel in 25-284 and went to the range without a cleaning rod. I put 46 rounds thru it without cleaning and it was a very good shooting rifle. It's gone thru two or three CGN owners and last I heard it was still shooting well, even after having a 260 round fired in it.

There are many barrel break in procedures out there but I think one could do just as well with this procedure followed by the wild man of Alaska.....AKA, Boxer on 24hourcampfire.

Link to highly technical video below, watch carefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg

I agree as well. And on a side note, I had a custom Model 70 300 WM with a Bevan King barrel that was a drill.