Daughter and/or son holding second firearm while I small game hunt?

Zen_Seeker

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Planning to bring my daughter and/or son with me grouse hunting this year. I'm going to bring my 12Ga and .22LR so wanted to know if there was any issue with the kids being unlicensed carrying the second firearm while I do the hunting. (They would be right beside me.)

I contacted the MNRF but the reply has me confused... If they can shoot targets with me without a gun license why would they need one if I'm hunting and they watch, while holding the empty second firearm? I was checking to see if they had a hunting reg against this as I thought there wouldn't be a firearm legal issue against it.

Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry:
Q: Can my unlicensed daughter carry the open and empty single shot shotgun for me? She will have no ammo/shells on her and will not be spotting or assisting with the hunt in any way.
A: An unlicensed person is not allowed to carry a firearm because they must be in possession of a gun licence to be able to be in possession of a firearm.
 
The answer you got is half-baked. If what they are saying is true, then it would be illegal for a supervised minor to hunt, even if they had a valid hunting licence. This is obviously not the case, so their response cannot be 100% accurate.

In your case, your kid doesn't have a hunting license. Correct? If so, then that's the issue. Or at least here in BC it would be. Anyone on a hunt, especially if they have a firearm in their possession, must have a hunting license. I say "especially" because it is hard to make the case that a person isn't hunting if they are carrying a firearm (loaded or not).

It's a grey area for sure. The simple solution is sling the unused firearm and let your kid carry the catch of the day.
 
ironsighter said:
The answer you got is half-baked. If what they are saying is true, then it would be illegal for a supervised minor to hunt, even if they had a valid hunting licence. This is obviously not the case, so their response cannot be 100% accurate.

In your case, your kid doesn't have a hunting license. Correct? If so, then that's the issue. Or at least here in BC it would be. Anyone on a hunt, especially if they have a firearm in their possession, must have a hunting license. I say "especially" because it is hard to make the case that a person isn't hunting if they are carrying a firearm (loaded or not).

It's a grey area for sure. The simple solution is sling the unused firearm and let your kid carry the catch of the day.
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What about getting a first time hunters permit for the child? Could that work? (In bc mind you)
 
I'd check the regs OP. Ours are reasonably coherent. Looking forward to the young gun turning 10 in January...
 
I think their issue may be if the kid is carrying the firearm and you are busy hunting they are technically an unlicenced person in possession of a firearm unsupervised.
It's sort of like when I go to the range with my kids. I'm not at a different bench shooting leaving them to do their own thing. You are supposed to be within arms reach in case things go sideways.
 
There are several issues here, and you didn't give the ages of the children so it's harder to come up with a solution.

If the kids are over 12, let them get their minor's PAL and then you're all set.

Another thing is that they would need a hunting license for obvious reasons. "No officer, I wasn't actually hunting, I'm just out for a stroll with this hunting rifle in the woods during hunting season with hunting ammo" ... uhh...

One possible solution would be that if the firearm is in a locked case and they don't have the key, or has a trigger lock that they don't have the key for, that would help.

When I go to the range with my girlfriend who has no PAL, if I have 2 rifles to carry from the car to the range, she can carry one and I can carry the other if it's in a locked case that she doesn't have the key for, similarly, if I leave a rifle locked in the trunk of the car in a locked case, she CAN take it out of the trunk and bring it into the house (the car is parked in the garage, so inside the house) before she drives off in the car (I specifically asked CFO on that one).

Restricteds are a whole different thing, of course.
 
ironsighter said:
The answer you got is half-baked. If what they are saying is true, then it would be illegal for a supervised minor to hunt, even if they had a valid hunting licence. This is obviously not the case, so their response cannot be 100% accurate.

In your case, your kid doesn't have a hunting license. Correct? If so, then that's the issue. Or at least here in BC it would be. Anyone on a hunt, especially if they have a firearm in their possession, must have a hunting license. I say "especially" because it is hard to make the case that a person isn't hunting if they are carrying a firearm (loaded or not).

It's a grey area for sure. The simple solution is sling the unused firearm and let your kid carry the catch of the day.
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The hunting regs are different for each province. For example, in Ontario a supervised minor/apprentice hunter with a hunting licence CANNOT hunt with a gun unless they have also passed their CFSC. Also, there can only be one firearm between the licenced hunter and the apprentice.

I agree with you, the op should just sling the unused rifle or do as canmic suggests and have her/him hold a locked case containing the extra gun. Seems dumb to have to do this but anything else and you could get in hot water with a CO - not an experience you want and especially not one for a budding young hunter to witness.
 
If your hunting then she would be considered part of the hunt carrying a gun by Ontario rules.It really all depends on the CO if you get stopped but I would not want to be the test person !
Just my $0.02
 
Runningfool said:
The hunting regs are different for each province. For example, in Ontario a supervised minor/apprentice hunter with a hunting licence CANNOT hunt with a gun unless they have also passed their CFSC. Also, there can only be one firearm between the licenced hunter and the apprentice.

I agree with you, the op should just sling the unused rifle or do as canmic suggests and have her/him hold a locked case containing the extra gun. Seems dumb to have to do this but anything else and you could get in hot water with a CO - not an experience you want and especially not one for a budding young hunter to witness.
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I see. Here in BC the CORE course includes firearms education and a skills test, so minors are not required to take the CFSC, in order to hunt (supervised) with a gun.

I agree that a young hunter should not have to see their parent get nailed for this type of offense. Best to go by the book.
 
Thanks for the feedback!

Son is 16, daughter 23. I asked a few questions of the MNRF and only the above point was unclear.

No issue with one or both coming along to watch and they can carry out the bird(s), cleaned or not. Having the 12g and .22LR with them along isn't an issue. Nothing but birdshoot allowed on my person though. (Hope we don't see any badgers.) ;)

They aren't spotting, hunting or doing anything more than enjoying a walk in the woods, off the computer for once. I'll just use them as a pack mule and enjoy the company. Neither is interested in doing more than plinking at the range or woods with me so no hunting courses for them. (I do want at least one to get a RPAL so I can pass down the firearms but I don't see that happening any time soon. To much going on in their lives at the moment.)


Here are the questions I asked to see if the dual firearms and company would be an issue along with the reply;

I'm planning to go grouse hunting for the first time and have a few questions.
1. Can I bring a .22LR and a single shot 12G shotgun? (I'm better with the .22LR but might need the 12G for tree or wing shots.)
2. Can my unlicensed daughter carry the open and empty shotgun for me? She will have no ammo/shells on her and will not be spotting or assisting with the hunt in any way.
3. Can my daughter carry any grouse I catch? Either after I clean them or before I clean them? This would be for Southern Ontario.

Reply;
1. Yes, you can carry multiple firearms such as .22LR and 12 Gauge Shotgun while hunting small game. For the 12 gauge you’re only allowed to have bird shots in your possession. You may not have slugs in your possession if you do not have a big game licence such as a deer licence in your possession.
2. An unlicensed person is not allowed to carry a firearm because they must be in possession of a gun licence to be able to be in possession of a firearm.
3. Yes, she would be able to carry the birds out. It does not matter if there clean or not.
 
Good luck having time to flip from your 22 to getting your 12 gauge from one of the kids, loading it and having time to wing shoot a grouse??!! Unless you have some trick up your sleeve that has the grouse waiting on you to make the switch? However you did state it's your first time grouse hunting so we'll chock it up to inexperience. Grouse on the wing are a fast target lost to a myriad of foliage in a blurr and blink of a second. Its a be ready, point and fire game. You generally have a few yards at best to get on them and fire. I say bring the kids and carry the shotgun yourself. It's a better all around option if you intend to wing shoot.
 
kamlooky said:
Yer still pizzie wid dah grouse tread............ain'tcha?.................:onCrack:
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No. Not at all, man. We all have our opinions. I don't hold any grudges.

I've just never read very many good words about the Savage 42, that's all. The 24 is great if you can find one and have the coin for it.
 
kamlooky said:
You know Savage makes a combo gun?
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I looked local for one but only found this; "Savage Model 42 Break Open Rifle/ Shotgun Combo .22LR/410", but reviews were not good. (Original models got high praise.) Only ever used a 12G so not sure how I would do with a 410 but was willing to practice and try. It seems a lot of grouse hunters use 410.

the spank said:
Good luck having time to flip from your 22 to getting your 12 gauge from one of the kids, loading it and having time to wing shoot a grouse??!! Unless you have some trick up your sleeve that has the grouse waiting on you to make the switch? However you did state it's your first time grouse hunting so we'll chock it up to inexperience. Grouse on the wing are a fast target lost to a myriad of foliage in a blurr and blink of a second. Its a be ready, point and fire game. You generally have a few yards at best to get on them and fire. I say bring the kids and carry the shotgun yourself. It's a better all around option if you intend to wing shoot.
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The stupid things won't move out of the way of the car when we go target shooting so I'm hoping they are just as...stubborn...when it's hunting season. :)

But the logic behind this is simple. I have both the 12G, which I've only used a few times in the last few months to get used to it, and a 10/22 which I've used often and shoot well. If I suck with one, or the prey is too fast or to hard to spot with one, I'll switch to the other. If it's in a tree I can swap easy enough and not have to worry about where the bullet will end up. If it's in the bush and I can see it the .22LR is my better option. Finding and stalking was more the style I was going for rather than flushing.

If I was experienced with the shotgun I'd stick to it but I trust in my .22LR abilities far more. I just don't want to waste a trip and no one else in the family has hunted in my lifetime. My daughter is interested and loves shooting targets with the pistols and rifles but my son is at the age where friends/computer are primary and hunting is grose, but he'll join me/us if I ask.

Regardless the rules didn't seem to clearly cover if they could carry the shotgun or not so I asked. Didn't quite think the reply covered my scenario so I posted here. The one reply that noted I wasn't able to oversee the carrier of the shotgun while using the .22LR made the most sense as I'm not looking for loopholes but honestly trying to make the safest and best choice from the legal options I have.

I guess I can try leaving one in the car and after a while switch to the other if things don't go well.

Thanks again for the opinions and advice. I really hope this works out well for us as I'd like to share and have one, if not both, continue to enjoy the sport, before we lose it.

Zen
 
ironsighter said:
No. Not at all, man. We all have our opinions. I don't hold any grudges.

I've just never read very many good words about the Savage 42, that's all. The 24 is great if you can find one and have the coin for it.
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True, read the same thing myself or I wold have bought one two weeks ago, for $420.
 
In BC, can't do it.

If you are hunting, so are they. If they don't have a hunting licence they cannot take part in the hunt, which would include carrying a second gun for you. They can walk with you, and that's about it. I don't think they can even legally assist in gutting/dressing/packing out the game (not 100% sure on this last point)

Wanstalls has the savage 42 on sale right now for $389ish. My buddy likes his, I've never shot it though. Also,you can find a used model 24 for $400-500 on the EE.
 
2 firearms = 2 hunters = 2 licenses.
IF and I say IF the second firearm is fully cased, all 6 sides, then it is a carrying case. Think like if you were to go target shooting.
An exposed rifle is hunting a cased rifle is not hunting but being transported.
 
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