Ever wonder why your 22 isn't performing? Weigh your ammo!

[weasel1]

In a quest for accuracy, I wondered why my mini mags were performing poorly. I don't really have access to better stuff handy ( one of these days I'll get me some Eley ), so this is what I started with. Thought you folks would be interested in the weigh in results.

 

[grauhanen]

Are there significant differences in the weight of the bullet itself between different rounds of the same make? Or are you weighing the entire cartridge and finding differences between them from one make?

 

[Candocad]

Try the rim thickness too. I like to batch out a 1000 rounds at a time, first for rim thickness then for weight. Helps on accuracy for sure.

Candocad.

 

[islandguy]

Here's an example of what a 1/10 grain difference in overall weight of a .22LR CCI Std Velocity cartridge can produce. Rim thickness was not measured. The cartridges were from not only the same batch number, but also the same brick of 500. The numbers 51.1 and 51.2 are the weights (in grains) of the two respective groups of 10 rounds. Both groups were shot on the same day under the exact same conditions, from an Enfield No8 .22 rifle.

 

[weasel1]

Entire cartridge was weighed. There's probably differences in bullet weight, but I'm not pulling then apart to find out!

Are there significant differences in the weight of the bullet itself between different rounds of the same make? Or are you weighing the entire cartridge and finding differences between them from one make?

 

[weasel1]

That's next!

Try the rim thickness too. I like to batch out a 1000 rounds at a time, first for rim thickness then for weight. Helps on accuracy for sure.

Candocad.

 

[islandguy]

Try the rim thickness too. I like to batch out a 1000 rounds at a time, first for rim thickness then for weight. Helps on accuracy for sure.

Candocad.

Agreed. A .22 target shooter who is much more experienced than me sold me on rim thickness measurement a few years back. I've just been too lazy to spend the extra time after weighing. Besides, after sorting by weight and rim thickness, you end up with a relatively small percentage of accurate ammo. Makes you realize why match-grade .22LR is so pricey.

 

[dryfire]

With five basic components(bullet,lube,powder,primer,case) of rimfire cartridges, one has to ask which one or combination of, the weight difference is attributed to? Another is will a similar weight difference be made up of the same factor(s) or something different in a different batch or brand and will results be repeated? The powder and primer being two of the lighter components, it would seem that variances in either would likely have most effect due to variances in gas pressure upon ignition. Without dismantling a sample from a batch there is no way of telling.
If weight sorting or rim thickness measuring provides belief in mileage then one has to decide to chase the feather. Some interesting points of view from Rimfire Central on the following threads

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355264
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359863

 

[grauhanen]

Perhaps thhe most positive thing that can be said about sorting for rim thickness or even by weight is that doing that gives one the mindset that he is doing everything possible to improve his shooting. It seems that many who try this return to shooting .22LR rounds as they come from the box of their choice, having found that sorting does very little to improve scores in practice.

The key most often is to find the ammo that shoots best in your rifle. That ammo will not be bulk ammo and most usually it will be match ammo. It is necessary, of course, to balance the cost of the ammo with its shooting behaviour. Maybe entry level match ammo like SK Standard Plus is the best for the average sporter rifle -- the CZ's, Savages, and Marlins (in no particular order). It may not be affordable to shoot Midas or R50 or Tenex at around $200 a brick just to try to wring out a very small fraction of an inch with a sporter rifle, when SK will do almost as well as the rifle itself is capable of shooting.

 

[stubblejumper]

I will just continue to purchase better quality ammunition like SK Standard Plus, and shoot smaller groups at 50 yards than the smaller group posted, with no weighing or sorting required.

 

[weasel1]

I'd be doing the same if I had easy access. In my case, it was a way to determine why i was getting odd groupings.

 

[RabidM4U5]

I'd be doing the same if I had easy access. In my case, it was a way to determine why i was getting odd groupings.

You do have easy access! Go on a distributor's website, click the ammos you like to add to cart, pay, wait for delivery! It's what all of us who shoot SK/Lapua/Eley/RWS do. Getting a case of 5000 rounds maximizes the ammo to shipping cost value, it's only a few $ more than just a brick or two. Having little to no variation in weight round to round of the same brand would be more indicative of performance potential, then powder charge, powder burn rate, bullet shape and lubricant formula complete the package that may or may not hit the harmonic sweet spot in your individual barrel.

My take on sorting rim thickness is the high quality ammo is already so consistent that it's a waste of time. I've measured Thunderbolts with an extreme variation of 0.035"-0.046" in the same box. Most were 0.039"-0.043" with only the odd one pushing the limits one way or the other. Sorting rims was again a waste of time, at this grade of ammo there is also too much variation of priming mix and powder charge round to round which has a much more dramatic effect on performance. Can't put lipstick on a pig and expect it to change into a beautiful woman. I'm not remembering if I also weighed some Thunderbolts, though I have also tested SK Magazine in 3 groups, No Sort, Rim Sort, Rim Sort and Weight Sort, and could tell no discernible performance difference.

The key most often is to find the ammo that shoots best in your rifle. That ammo will not be bulk ammo and most usually it will be match ammo. It is necessary, of course, to balance the cost of the ammo with its shooting behaviour. Maybe entry level match ammo like SK Standard Plus is the best for the average sporter rifle -- the CZ's, Savages, and Marlins (in no particular order). It may not be affordable to shoot Midas or R50 or Tenex at around $200 a brick just to try to wring out a very small fraction of an inch with a sporter rifle, when SK will do almost as well as the rifle itself is capable of shooting.

SK has shot many a tight group for me matching the accuracy of all the higher grade Lapua, though the better stuff tends to have a few less fliers than the SK. There is no guarantee high accuracy will be attained by virtue of shooting expensive ammo alone. Shot Eley Edge and Match from my 64 MSR and 0/20 groups were under 1/2" a handful over 1". The other day I re-tested Eley Sport (their cheapest entry-level ammo green box) and got very similar performance as SK was giving me, I think it'll be my substitute practice ammo during this SK/Lapua shortage. In this particular rifle, $6.95/box ammo smoked the $16.5/box ammo, go figure. The bullet shape and driving band length is different between the sport and edge/match.

 

[grauhanen]

Some nice groups, RabidM4U5. The ones that aren't as tight -- are any of them shooter-related or are they all barrel and/or ammo-related?

 

[ronnie01]

Some nice groups, RabidM4U5. The ones that aren't as tight -- are any of them shooter-related or are they all barrel and/or ammo-related?

Yup can't be the gun!!!

R

 

[savagecanuck]

Some nice groups, RabidM4U5. The ones that aren't as tight -- are any of them shooter-related or are they all barrel and/or ammo-related?

I'm pretty sure its the ammo.If you look at my latest outing I had a similar issue with the Ultra match some good groups then a .714 same with the midas + as my last 2 groups sucked
I rounded out my set with my go to Center X and bang all under a half inch.There is no substitute for good ammo that your rifle likes!
I,ve seen enough of Rabids groups he can shoot.

 

[Candocad]

Agreed. A .22 target shooter who is much more experienced than me sold me on rim thickness measurement a few years back. I've just been too lazy to spend the extra time after weighing. Besides, after sorting by weight and rim thickness, you end up with a relatively small percentage of accurate ammo. Makes you realize why match-grade .22LR is so pricey.

I bought some Eley Tennex to test the theory. Minimal variance in weight, in fact I sorted them in to two batches, and that was after rim thickness measuring. Yes, you pay for this level of consistency.

I find the bulk boxes of say Federal Match rim thickness batched and then weighed and sorted gives you a pretty accurate round to shoot with. A poor mans approach to target ammo you could say? But I find it works, and it certainly make for cheap, accurate shooting!

Candocad.

 

[Mr.S]

You do have easy access! Go on a distributor's website, click the ammos you like to add to cart, pay, wait for delivery! It's what all of us who shoot SK/Lapua/Eley/RWS do. Getting a case of 5000 rounds maximizes the ammo to shipping cost value, it's only a few $ more than just a brick or two. Having little to no variation in weight round to round of the same brand would be more indicative of performance potential, then powder charge, powder burn rate, bullet shape and lubricant formula complete the package that may or may not hit the harmonic sweet spot in your individual barrel.

My take on sorting rim thickness is the high quality ammo is already so consistent that it's a waste of time. I've measured Thunderbolts with an extreme variation of 0.035"-0.046" in the same box. Most were 0.039"-0.043" with only the odd one pushing the limits one way or the other. Sorting rims was again a waste of time, at this grade of ammo there is also too much variation of priming mix and powder charge round to round which has a much more dramatic effect on performance. Can't put lipstick on a pig and expect it to change into a beautiful woman. I'm not remembering if I also weighed some Thunderbolts, though I have also tested SK Magazine in 3 groups, No Sort, Rim Sort, Rim Sort and Weight Sort, and could tell no discernible performance difference.



SK has shot many a tight group for me matching the accuracy of all the higher grade Lapua, though the better stuff tends to have a few less fliers than the SK. There is no guarantee high accuracy will be attained by virtue of shooting expensive ammo alone. Shot Eley Edge and Match from my 64 MSR and 0/20 groups were under 1/2" a handful over 1". The other day I re-tested Eley Sport (their cheapest entry-level ammo green box) and got very similar performance as SK was giving me, I think it'll be my substitute practice ammo during this SK/Lapua shortage. In this particular rifle, $6.95/box ammo smoked the $16.5/box ammo, go figure. The bullet shape and driving band length is different between the sport and edge/match.

 

[weasel1]

That's sort of where I was going with this. Lack of easy access to better ammo is my issue. I'm not going to buy a case when I'm not sure if the rifle will like it. I need a couple of boxes of this and that to try first. Then I'll buy a truckload of it. For now, this should help improve things a little.

I bought some Eley Tennex to test the theory. Minimal variance in weight, in fact I sorted them in to two batches, and that was after rim thickness measuring. Yes, you pay for this level of consistency.

I find the bulk boxes of say Federal Match rim thickness batched and then weighed and sorted gives you a pretty accurate round to shoot with. A poor mans approach to target ammo you could say? But I find it works, and it certainly make for cheap, accurate shooting!

Candocad.

 

[Donny Fenn1]

Precision Shooting magazine (RIP) did an extensive multi year/multi article/multi author/multi shooter study into all the weighing/rim thickness/swaging 22LR for better accuracy and the effects on BR50 shooting and performance. The conclusion was even the "best" most consistent ammo was still going to be let down by the heeled bullet of the 22LR. So much so that they recommended shutting BR 50 and other rimfire bench rest matches down due to the inconsistencies inherent in the cartridge.
It caused a major uproar at the time and the consensus from shooters was " we know all that and it's frustrating for sure but that's what makes 22LR fun"
Me? 22 is for plinking and fun, I'll sticking to centerfire stuff where at leaSt I can control the variables.

 

[RabidM4U5]

That's sort of where I was going with this. Lack of easy access to better ammo is my issue. I'm not going to buy a case when I'm not sure if the rifle will like it. I need a couple of boxes of this and that to try first. Then I'll buy a truckload of it. For now, this should help improve things a little.

Ah yeah I hear ya on that, I made up my case by getting one brick of various types/brands. There's really no other way to get this stuff to just try a single box unfortunately. Hirsch let me mix n' match a few boxes to make up a brick but the shipping cost is right up there so it's still painful to only order a small amount for testing. I'm stuck with a couple expensive bricks that shoot like thunderturds out of the annie.

Some nice groups, RabidM4U5. The ones that aren't as tight -- are any of them shooter-related or are they all barrel and/or ammo-related?

Thank you, well you know how I feel about this every group over 1/2" is 100% ammo and/or barrel related. Every shot on the card felt good. Eley Sport is not at all manufactured to Tenex standards there are bound to be several fliers in a box and I think most barrels are primed to spit out a flier every few groups. There is a grouping pattern evident across the board of all shooters and rifles, of particular note the cluster of 4 with 1 out. You can see with the edge/match my MSR didn't like the 4 weren't too close together then the 1 out, was waaay out. Shooting ammo it likes the 4 are tiiiggght and the one out should keep the group under 1/2". Since I know I'm a Sub-MOA shooter at 100 yards with centerfire, it stands to logic at 50 yards all of my groups should be 1/2" or better. If I had exceptional equipment, I'd be upset with anything over 1/4" but that level of shooting is a tall order for .22 LR. As Donny Fenn1 points out, it's just not an inherently accurate cartridge and maximizing the performance of it is a real art.

Awww, I'm sorry the discussion is too advanced for you