gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I do believe Canvasback was just giving examples to illustrate a point. I have met him and communicated with him many times and I never have found him to be a rich condescending Ahole.
turkish the new spanish
- Thread starter brybenn
- Start date
I have also met and communicated with Canvasback a number of times and have nothing but good things to say. He is always generous with his time and is very passionate about SxS's. At the couple of SxS get togethers we have had, he did not hesitate to lay out a nice selection of SxS's for others to try. Just my 2 cents (p.s. I will get him to shoot my CZ SxS the next time we have a get together
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I read just fine when you listed the brands you buy and only buy as a qualification, for some odd reason choosing the textiles industry as a dubious comparison to quality firearms.
"I only buy b guns" is as ridiculous a qualification for understanding Turkish shotguns as the guy who says "I only buy Mossberg". B guns are fantastic and beautiful and from an aesthetic approach worth it for the sporting clays shooter.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Well, I must say that I have polo shirts from the Bay and other higher priced establishments. I also have $12.00 polo shirts from walmart and I can tell you there is a big difference in the quality. And I'm not saying some of my other higher priced polo shirts weren't made in China . They likely were and maybe even in the same factory as the $12.00 Walmart shirts. China is very capable of making high end products. The difference in quality is when retailers order low end price point products which Walmart is famous for. So to say you rest your case on the comparison that a $12.00 Walmart polo shirt is the same as a $100.00 polo shirt elsewhere is a very poor example of resting your case.
As far as guns, there are many guns now built in Turkey that are great for hunting. All makes and grades of guns will eventually have problems, any mechanical object does. But you can expect to have more issues with a lower end gun if they see a higher volume of shooting. And of course some makes are worse than others. And yes, I have owned SxS's or over/unders from Turkey, Spain, Russia and the UK. Right now , regarding over/unders I have 3 left, all in 20 gauge. One is a Browning Superposed, one is an Italian made gun and one is one of those brand new Pardus guns that were on sale at WSS for $380.00. I listed the guns in order of quality. There is no comparison between the Superposed and the Pardus. Having the guns in hand you would see the immediate differences in build quality. The Italian gun is by an obscure maker and no means a high end gun but it is above the Pardus. The Pardus though does look very nice and hopefully will last for hunting applications. (I bought it for my daughter for her first shotgun). Point is it is not in the same league as the Browning or other guns I have had such as Beretta, Charles Daly or even the older Baikals I had. I also had a Turkish made CZ over/under and SxS. They were great guns for the money and intended purpose but still lacked in build quality of the others I had. Now I didn't list the guns I have owned so someone can say I'm bragging. It's been mentioned that one should have first hand experience with whatever gun to make comments. So I have had experience with these guns and I'm just saying there is a difference and you pay more for that difference. But if a person's budget dictates that a lower priced Turkish gun is the realm, that is great. Many will last for years of hunting. Just realize that there is merit to the saying you get what you pay for so match the gun to intended application.
Interesting thread.
Turkish guns I have owned on the past were beautifull but useless due to mettalurgy issues.
Sad and costly lessons in gun ownership.
More recently, it has become obvious that while the rest of the gun industry was investing in executive bonuses for underperforming guns of dubious quality, the Turks were investing heavily in CNC technology.
No longer does "Joe" (the N.A. Equivalent of AcHmed) hand fit every unit with his own personal file.
Mass produced quality of acceptable standards.
Actually..... I was a die hard Rem 1100 person until I got my hands on a Turkish 12 ga Autoloader.
No longer.
While it is probably at the higher end of the $ range ($1000), i have found it to be a quality and well made unit.
I am no fan of sling swivels, but do appreciate the stock shims for fitting.
While it will never replace my 390 ST or my 3200 or my KX, there is definately a place for a quality Turkish auto in my working stable.
AND.... No parts inventory required to date.
However.... It has only been a year..... 3200 rounds.
Time will tell.
Turkish guns I have owned on the past were beautifull but useless due to mettalurgy issues.
Sad and costly lessons in gun ownership.
More recently, it has become obvious that while the rest of the gun industry was investing in executive bonuses for underperforming guns of dubious quality, the Turks were investing heavily in CNC technology.
No longer does "Joe" (the N.A. Equivalent of AcHmed) hand fit every unit with his own personal file.
Mass produced quality of acceptable standards.
Actually..... I was a die hard Rem 1100 person until I got my hands on a Turkish 12 ga Autoloader.
No longer.
While it is probably at the higher end of the $ range ($1000), i have found it to be a quality and well made unit.
I am no fan of sling swivels, but do appreciate the stock shims for fitting.
While it will never replace my 390 ST or my 3200 or my KX, there is definately a place for a quality Turkish auto in my working stable.
AND.... No parts inventory required to date.
However.... It has only been a year..... 3200 rounds.
Time will tell.
Uplandguy, you still can't comprehend what you read and now you are putting words in my mouth, twisting the meaning to suit your purpose. So let's break it down.
You suggested I said "I only buy B guns" by putting it in quotation marks and suggesting that comment or attitude is ridiculous.
But I didn't say that. I said I don't buy guns of lesser quality than B guns. I have one B gun, a Browning Citori 16 gauge I bought new in 2004. I'm quite happy with it. I have two other guns I paid more actual money for...the rest often much less. Because I don't judge things based on the retail price or the brand name. I judge things based on the apparent quality of the item.
What I was doing by making mention of some personal facts was illustrate the point that we each make buying choices. And those choices are reflected in what the marketplace presents us as options. The inference being that if you don't like cheap crap, save your pennies and go buy the good quality stuff that is available and those purchases will signal to the supply chain that quality goods are valued and have a place in the market.
That was probably way over your head, if your previous posts attacking me are anything to go on, but whatever. I'll continue.
I spend the time and energy to educate myself about the qualities I am looking for in a product and so can be confident in my judgement when I come across an item that may fit the bill. That's when I care about the product. There are many things I buy where quality is not such a big deal. So like many people, I head off to Walmart or Canadian Tire or Homesense or wherever to get the thing that will be "good enough" for the least money possible. Another personal fact that illustrates my point....I drive a 14 year old SUV with 320,000 km on it because it runs, gets me where I'm going and I don't have my sense of worth tied up in what vehicle I drive.
Unlike what some posters here are suggesting, when it's a product I care about, I try to avoid making a buying judgement based on heresay, brand name and country of origin. I have spent a significant portion of the last 12 years intensively learning about SxS shotguns so I could understand and recognize the qualities I was looking for, REGARDLESS OF BRAND NAME, COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OR PRICE. I sought out some of the most knowledgeable people in NA, asked polite questions and listened carefully to the answers.
What I didn't do was act like a big swinging ####, trying to put others in their place. However, at this point, when someone pipes up with information I know, because of whatever specialized knowledge I have gained in my 58 years, to be wrong, I speak up. I don't think a gun forum is a place to spread misinformation or rumour.
You appear to keep thinking, likely because you still have not learned how to read and comprehend all the posts on a 45 post thread, that I am looking down my nose at lesser quality firearms, and by inference, those who buy them. You also seem to have come to the bizarre conclusion I don't like B guns, if your defense/endorsement of them quoted above is anything to go on. Little else could explain your ad hominem attacks on me. And yet, I am defending them, I'm suggesting they have value in the marketplace.
I'll try to be clear. The points I have been trying to make in this thread are threefold:
1. We get the marketplace we deserve.
2. Some Turkish guns may be very good and some Turkish guns may be very bad and some Turkish guns may be okay.
3. Educate oneself about the product desired so an educated choice can be made.
Can we allow the thread to get back on topic now, Uplandguy, so the OP can continue his worthwhile quest to learn more about Turkish guns? Or do you want to piss on me some more?
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Thanks for posting this thegunnut, because it is exactly this kind of evolution I was trying to describe in one of my earlier posts. As a mature industry moves into a new country because of labour cost advantages, there is often teething pains, but it would be a mistake to form an inviolate opinion of capability and quality based on early results.
Things change.
If by socialists you are were referring to the USSR Canvasback, then yes, there are many socialists who shoot guns. LOL. I will disagree with you on the short term thinking that has pervaded our industries and affected the quality of many manufactured products in the last couple of decades. But that is another discussion. Having been on the planet for long enough to remember the 'Jap Crap' era while at present a 'Made in Japan' now means quality your argument has merit. That is assuming the powers that be in the industry under discussion actually have decent ethics. And that is also another discussion. My collection of shotguns does not include any Turkish guns at present so cannot comment directly but one of my neighbours bought a brand spanking new Mossberg 410 0/U last year and it did not make it through the season. So quality is where you find it.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I guess when you organize one and then you can invite yourself, lol!
There are parallels between the current Turkish production and the heyday of the Spanish gun industry including some of the same myths.
In both places guns were/are made to a price point demanded by the purchaser and the makers would put anyone's name on the gun. No matter where a gun is made when it's made to sell at a specific point corners will be cut usually in fit and finish. In both countries there were/are complaints about the heat treating of parts and "soft steel." There were/are rumours of major makers having their parts made in both places.
There are two differences with the Turkish gun makers. The Spanish trade always had a history of higher-end quality guns that the Turks don't seem to have. It may be the Turks can produce a gun comparable in quality to the high-end Spanish makers but I have yet to see it. Secondly, Turkish guns don't go through a recognized proofing system while Spain is a C.I.P. member and their guns don't have to be reproofed in other countries with proof laws.
In both places guns were/are made to a price point demanded by the purchaser and the makers would put anyone's name on the gun. No matter where a gun is made when it's made to sell at a specific point corners will be cut usually in fit and finish. In both countries there were/are complaints about the heat treating of parts and "soft steel." There were/are rumours of major makers having their parts made in both places.
There are two differences with the Turkish gun makers. The Spanish trade always had a history of higher-end quality guns that the Turks don't seem to have. It may be the Turks can produce a gun comparable in quality to the high-end Spanish makers but I have yet to see it. Secondly, Turkish guns don't go through a recognized proofing system while Spain is a C.I.P. member and their guns don't have to be reproofed in other countries with proof laws.
I've seen various cheap guns fail and I've seen high dollar big name guns fail. At a much lower rate however. I'm not one for trying to impress others buy owning expensive things although I love Ferrari and Holland and Hollands. Don't own them but want them. I drive an import because it was better made in my mind. I shoot guns from Spanish Italian Russian American and where ever jj sarasqueta is from. I think Spanish. All are well built. I do own a tristar from turkey and I've had many issues with it. There are many turkish guns of various quality. After a lot of work and time and new parts my tristar shoots well enough that I use it for waterfowling.
Even if I had the money to buy all high end guns I still wouldn't drag a multi thousand dollar gun thru what I do when I rabbit hunt.
I don't mind hunting with high dollar guns that's what they're for after all. There are just some times and places where I'd prefer to potentially damage a lesser valued gun
I don't mind hunting with high dollar guns that's what they're for after all. There are just some times and places where I'd prefer to potentially damage a lesser valued gun
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
When comparing budget to higher end, there are several things to consider. Many just look at lower end guns and feel if it goes bang when the trigger is pulled then they are just as good as a higher quality gun. I suppose ultimately the gun going bang is the main objective but there is much more to it in getting to that point of the gun going bang. Lets even forget about potential break downs because every mechanical thing will break over time although the process is usually sped up with the cheaper the quality one goes no matter what the product. But in regards to guns, particularly over/unders or SxS's, lets look at some other factors. If you could afford it, would you like to have a gun where the opening lever works smoothly and effortlessly, where the opening and closing of the action is smooth and precise, where the hinge pin will last for thousands of openings, where the triggers break cleanly and smoothly, where the barrels are well regulated, where the fit and finish is well done, where barrels are deep blued instead of black paint, where the stock finish isn't marred after being put in the gun case a dozen times, where the chokes don't fly out or come loose after every 12 shots, where the weight and balance compliment each other, where the rib is attached securely instead of low grade epoxy, and where the overall feel of the materials used to make the gun gives one a feeling that it's a decent product. And lets not even get into styles and application of engraving because that doesn't make the gun function better. Would it not be nice to hunt with guns that have these features. If the answer is yes then you can see what some of the differences are between budget and higher end. Can everyone afford guns such as these. Of course not and there is nothing wrong with buying a gun to suit the budget. But I bet most people would love having guns like these. Budgets aside, there are those who shoot budget priced guns because they believe there is no difference or feel it is not worth paying for those differences for their intended use of the gun. And that is fine as well. Point is, there is a lot more to the budget/quality comparison and declaring a low end gun is just as good as a higher end gun because it goes bang or because one's low end gun worked during a hunting outing while a buddy's $3000.00 gun failed. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find another group where the story would be the opposite. They will all break down .
Well I actually want to piss on you some more but this ain't the place. I never said you didn't like b guns. Also, your suggestion that people who don't like them are socialists is absurd. My point above is that I like the quality to money offered by b guns but looking down your nose on people who don't is silly. Also your accusation that people who don't agree with you are illiterate tells me all I need to know about you: a "pococurante" who is superior to all that he owns...
At any rate for both of us this passed juvenile a few pages ago and is unworthy of both. So no more from me.
I have noticed that CZ has made an effort to continuously improve their product and seem committed to making side by sides. Hopefully the Turkish gun industry continues to evolve and that a few makers emerge to fill the voids left by companies such as Ugartechea who close down Operations.
I will start a thread when a date is set for the next one. Anyone with an interest in SxS's is welcome. (Whether you have one or not)
Well said. There is no particular virtue in a low-priced gun but there's no vice either. If it works for you and meets your needs there's no need to justify your choice or conversely claim some mantle of superiority. No one becomes automatically smarter or somehow more discerning if they buy a cheap gun.
While you usually get what you pay for the challenge is understanding where the money is in a gun. The Beretta 687 EELL is a beautiful gun that doesn't interest me in the slightest because most of the price tag is in the adornment. The action and barrels are the same as less fancier and lower priced 687 models.
Having played with and shot several Turkish guns it's not hard to understand why they are less expensive. There isn't one in my safe because of my willingness to pay more to own and shoot higher quality guns. YMMV.
Well I'd like to stop as well but you keep making inaccurate remarks about me and what I said so I am forced to respond. Stop attacking me or lying about what I have said and I'll happily stop tormenting you.
Now before we go any further, slow down, breath evenly and as you continue to read try forming each word with your mouth to be sure you are getting it right. Don't skip over any because words are important if you are going to understand the meaning of the sentences.
First, let's be clear. I've said nothing about you that isn't evidenced by your posts. I didn't suggest people who didn't like B guns were socialists. Nowhere did I suggest that I look down my nose at people who choose not to buy B guns. Nor did I suggest I look down my nose at those who do. Nor have I said those who disagree with me are illiterate. I didn't say inexpensive guns were bad nor did I say people who choose to buy inexpensive guns were bad, or losers, or anything that I could look down my nose at. Please find and quote where you think I wrote those things.
In fact I only look down my nose at silly, excitable mouth breathers who have poor reading and comprehension skills and who get so bent out of shape by their misinterpretation of what they have read that they go on an internet rant.
You have made this so personal, uplandguy, that I took a few minutes and read some of your posts in other threads. You seem to jump to the conclusion quite readily that other people are "snobs". Perhaps you are a bit insecure about your own situation, whatever that may be. I may be many things but a snob is not one of them. LOL
Maybe you should just acknowledge that, after giving it another read, you misunderstood what I was saying and we can leave it at that.
