barrel break in question?

[hometownhero]

What is the best copper solvent?

kg12, wipeout

 

[RabidM4U5]

Good god man of course forging adds stresses, and it is a good thing! It also aligns the grains which is also a good thing, why do you think it's done?

I'm at work so I don't have time to give you a complete metallurgical breakdown showing the benefits of forging so you will have to do your own research, but just stop.

Dude, don't ever tell another member not to post, that's not cool. Hammer forging is done for one reason only: production volume. Sounds like you need to do some more research. I'm sorry you believe the snake oil that this method is somehow superior. Name one record held by a hammer forged barrel. Name one bench rest shooter that uses a hammer forged barrel. I thought so. Hammer forging does not benefit YOU. Game, set, match, checkmate.

You should be a little more appreciative of me since I have a very valuable contribution to make to this discussion and the community right now. I have a barrel that did not receive a "textbook" break in, and has fouling/accuracy issues (glory be the hammer forged barrel). I have the means to put it through and document a "break in" procedure. The results of my experiment will provide a definitive answer on the merits of "breaking in" a rifle barrel. You're welcome.

 

[Hitzy]

Dude, don't ever tell another member not to post, that's not cool. Hammer forging is done for one reason only: production volume. Sounds like you need to do some more research. I'm sorry you believe the snake oil that this method is somehow superior. Name one record held by a hammer forged barrel. Name one bench rest shooter that uses a hammer forged barrel. I thought so. Hammer forging does not benefit YOU. Game, set, match, checkmate.

You should be a little more appreciative of me since I have a very valuable contribution to make to this discussion and the community right now. I have a barrel that did not receive a "textbook" break in, and has fouling/accuracy issues (glory be the hammer forged barrel). I have the means to put it through and document a "break in" procedure. The results of my experiment will provide a definitive answer on the merits of "breaking in" a rifle barrel. You're welcome.

There are other benefits then simply higher production, you get a more durable barrel with acceptable accuracy that will hold that accuracy for 10,000-30,000 rounds depending on the cartridge.
You can make 10's of thousands of barrels that will perform the same, first one made will gauge the same as the 50,000th one made, where cut barrels will vary by batch as the cutters and tooling wear and get replaced.
Now look at a BR rifle as a whole....the receiver, the bolt, the bedding block, the trigger group.... all precision CNC, no human hands ####ing anything up. But the barrel we want hand chambered, hand reamed, hand lapped. The technology today is BETTER then hand fitting or finishing.
And were you really expecting BR accuracy out of a Howa hunting rifle? You aren't feeding it BR components....140gr sst?

 

[Bartledan]

Dude, don't ever tell another member not to post, that's not cool. Hammer forging is done for one reason only: production volume. Sounds like you need to do some more research. I'm sorry you believe the snake oil that this method is somehow superior. Name one record held by a hammer forged barrel. Name one bench rest shooter that uses a hammer forged barrel. I thought so. Hammer forging does not benefit YOU. Game, set, match, checkmate.

You should be a little more appreciative of me since I have a very valuable contribution to make to this discussion and the community right now. I have a barrel that did not receive a "textbook" break in, and has fouling/accuracy issues (glory be the hammer forged barrel). I have the means to put it through and document a "break in" procedure. The results of my experiment will provide a definitive answer on the merits of "breaking in" a rifle barrel. You're welcome.

1 barrel is just one barrel. It can't tell you anything. There is no way of knowing why it has "accuracy and fouling issues". Anyone who thinks they know why it does is just fooling themselves.

On one hand we have some barrel manufacturers whose products are used to win trophies who insist break in is necessary. On the other hand, we have some barrel manufacturers whose products are used to win trophies that say break in does nothing.

Neither group has done any research, they are all operating on anecdotal evidence with a healthy dash of "appeal to authority".

To nail this down you'd need 200 identical rifles, and perform a double blind experiment.

100 would be the "break in voodoo" rifles, and 100 would be "shoot it like you stole it" rifles.

The most important thing is that the shooters/cleaners/rifles are randomized, and varying skill by shooter and by time are controlled for.

This is a big pile of money, so it's never going to be done.

Not least because barrels which have not been "broken in" are still competetive. This suggests one of 2 things:

1) barrel break-in is unecessary.

2) the barrel makers who do not recommend a break in procedure are more skilled than the ones who do recommend a break in procedure, otherwise the break in procedure would create competetively dominant barrels given equal skill.

2 seems unlikely.

 

[ronnie01]

You're correct in that the hammering process shouldn't add any more tool marks to the barrel. Note the steps that occurred before rifling: deep hole drilling the blank and reaming. That's where the tool marks come from and you can even see them by eye in that big bore they show being borescoped. Pause fullscreen at 6:18 and you'll see the marks on the land at 10 o'clock. Nothing but hand lapping can remove these tool marks, and no barrel making process can prevent them.





The question I have to ask is what benefit does hammer forging provide the shooter? The big companies want to lead you to believe it is somehow superior to other methods but the truth is they're the ones who benefit from the investment because they can literally "hammer out" a fully rifled barrel in mere minutes on the machine as well the advanced machine can even do some of the contour/profiling work on the barrel as it is rifled. They save time on the prep work and finishing steps this way To match the volume they produce with button or cut rifling they'd need a massively larger facility with many more machines and employees. Bye Bye profits (or we'd just be paying more for firearms). Hammering imparts massive stress into the barrel steel and they make no mention of stress relieving the barrels. So as your barrel gets hot from shooting it can warp due to some stress movement and shoot to a different POI. Allow it to cool and it returns to it's original shape. Buttoning also imparts stress though custom barrels are then stress relieved. Cut rifling is stress free and actually removes some of the drill/reamer marks but this method is painfully slow. How many bench rest shooters use a hammer forged barrel?

If the barrels made by production factories were that good, why is the successful list of the 3/4" hunting rifle challenge so small?

Your statement about no stress relieving after the hammer forging is not correct. Read this about hammer forging and stress relieving.

http://firearmshistory.########.ca/2010/05/rifling-manufacturing-hammer-forged.html

R

 

[RabidM4U5]

There are other benefits then simply higher production, you get a more durable barrel with acceptable accuracy that will hold that accuracy for 10,000-30,000 rounds depending on the cartridge.
You can make 10's of thousands of barrels that will perform the same, first one made will gauge the same as the 50,000th one made, where cut barrels will vary by batch as the cutters and tooling wear and get replaced.
Now look at a BR rifle as a whole....the receiver, the bolt, the bedding block, the trigger group.... all precision CNC, no human hands ####ing anything up. But the barrel we want hand chambered, hand reamed, hand lapped. The technology today is BETTER then hand fitting or finishing.
And were you really expecting BR accuracy out of a Howa hunting rifle? You aren't feeding it BR components....140gr sst?

I'll agree with you up to the point, and suffice it to say, hammer forged barrels done right produce good enough barrels for their intended market, the mass hunting crowd. My barrel does not fall under the "done right" column. I'm well aware the rifle is not a BR rig, but was it too much to expect more than 10 accurate shots out of it before the fouling demons took hold? Please notify me as soon as a manufacturer produces match grade bullets in .277", until then I shoot what I can get and the sst's were just one of the many I've tried.

Your statement about no stress relieving after the hammer forging is not correct. Read this about hammer forging and stress relieving.

http://firearmshistory.########.ca/2010/05/rifling-manufacturing-hammer-forged.html

R

My statement pertained directly to the Sabatti video about the hammer forging process Hitzy posted where they did not make any mention of stress relieving after forging. I thought it would be odd not to do so. Some might say there is so much stress in a HF barrel that it cannot be completely relieved. One way or the other shoot a group, let the barrel cool and there's no issue.

 

[Throttle_monkey1]

Dude, don't ever tell another member not to post, that's not cool. Hammer forging is done for one reason only: production volume. Sounds like you need to do some more research. I'm sorry you believe the snake oil that this method is somehow superior. Name one record held by a hammer forged barrel. Name one bench rest shooter that uses a hammer forged barrel. I thought so. Hammer forging does not benefit YOU. Game, set, match, checkmate.

You should be a little more appreciative of me since I have a very valuable contribution to make to this discussion and the community right now. I have a barrel that did not receive a "textbook" break in, and has fouling/accuracy issues (glory be the hammer forged barrel). I have the means to put it through and document a "break in" procedure. The results of my experiment will provide a definitive answer on the merits of "breaking in" a rifle barrel. You're welcome.

The reason I told you stop is because you are posting info that shows a complete lack of knowledge of what forging is used for, and you're saying it like it's the gospel truth.

Forging adds strentgth through cold working and/or hot working the material and aligns the grains in a desirable direction (usually
Perpendicular to the load(s) on the obeject during use).

Sometimes they are stress relieved, other times there is a benefit to having residual compressive forces parallel to the tension loads in the object. A barrel is a pressure vessel so it will experience tension in the circumferential plane. Residual compressive forces would be ok in this direction. Grain flow perpindicular to this would be desirable through forging (longitudinal grain flow). This is the metallurgical explanation of forging a barrel, Hitzy nailed the production side of it.

 

[Hitzy]

I'll agree with you up to the point, and suffice it to say, hammer forged barrels done right produce good enough barrels for their intended market, the mass hunting crowd. My barrel does not fall under the "done right" column. I'm well aware the rifle is not a BR rig, but was it too much to expect more than 10 accurate shots out of it before the fouling demons took hold? Please notify me as soon as a manufacturer produces match grade bullets in .277", until then I shoot what I can get and the sst's were just one of the many I've tried.



My statement pertained directly to the Sabatti video about the hammer forging process Hitzy posted where they did not make any mention of stress relieving after forging. I thought it would be odd not to do so. Some might say there is so much stress in a HF barrel that it cannot be completely relieved. One way or the other shoot a group, let the barrel cool and there's no issue.

Nosler Accubond Long Range are good target/hunting rounds.
Barnes LRX
Berger makes a bunch.
Sierra Matchking.

Take your pick
http://www.x-reload.com/270-6-8-caliber-277/