Having an issue reloading 30-06

thump_rrr

thump_rrr

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First of all I'm an experienced reloader having reloaded probably 50,000 rounds so far with out any issues such as this.

I'm reloading for my M1 Garand.
The Garand has a new barrel which came short chambered.
I installed and finish reamed the barrel at one of Barney's M14/Garand clinics in Petawawa a couple of years ago.
The barrel is finish reamed to minimum headspace (ejector was removed from bolt during headspacing etc.)

I'm using a new set of RCBS 30-06 dies which I have setup to full length size 0.002" below chamber dimension/
I have 150 pieces of Federal once fired brass and 50 pieces of RP once fired brass.
The issue I'm having is that my full length sizing die is only sizing the exterior of the neck to 0.331"

With the Federal brass which has a consistent neck thickness of 0.0115 I have zero neck tension.
0.0115 x 2 =0.023 + 0.308 =0.331
With the 50 pieces of RP brass that has an inconsistent neck thickness between 0.012" and 0.014" i get 0.003" neck tension.
0.013 x 2 = 0.026 +0.308 = 0.334"
SAAMI maximum neck diameter is 0.3397" but I don't see a minimum.

Is the die out of spec?
Is the brass out of spec?
Is there an easy solution without resorting to bushing neck dies or tossing out 150 pieces of brass?
I already use a Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer die for my .308 so I have all the necessary bushings.

Thanks in advance.
 
Pull your expander button and measure it. It should be roughly .0025" less than bullet dia. for generic dies and could be the wrong expander included with your die set.
 
We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies vary in size.

The vast majority of reloaders do not anneal their brass and brass spring back varies with case brand, age and use.

Look at the link below, the results show .005 difference in inside neck diameter without the expander button between dies.

http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

The custom die maker Whidden sells expander ball kits with five expanders per caliber in .001 increments.

http://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/expander-ball-kits-and-sets/

Product Description

The Whidden Gunworks Expander Balls typically allow the shooter the opportunity to adjust the neck tension from .001″ to .005″. The Expander Ball Kit comes with five Expander Balls. Each kit includes an Expander of the chosen caliber and decreases in size by .001″. Example: If an Expander Ball Kit for .243 caliber is ordered, the kit would include Expander Ball sizes .243, .242, .241, .240 and .239.

"Is the die out of spec?" In my opinion the expander diameter has the greatest end effect of inside neck diameter.
And you can't size two different brands of brass with different neck thicknesses and expect the same result.

I only have a well used 1943 M1 Garand with a worn barrel, but on my semi-autos my expanders are at least .002 to .003 smaller than bullet diameter.
 
Hitzy said:
Resize with the expander removed completely...bullet will expand the neck and you will get good tension.
Click to expand...

Hitzy

Forcing the bullet into a under size case neck that does not have a uniform neck thickness causes neck runout.

I cringe when I see posters saying when using bushing dies on unturned necks that the are not using the expander.

The OP needs to take more measurements and study his problem and find his answers.

I bought a carbide expander from a well known die manufacture and it was only .0005 smaller than bullet diameter.

I ended up polishing the expander down that came with the die and lubing the inside of the case necks.

There is a reason why the custom die maker Whidden sells expander ball sets that vary in diameter.
 
bigedp51 said:
Hitzy

Forcing the bullet into a under size case neck that does not have a uniform neck thickness causes neck runout.

I cringe when I see posters saying when using bushing dies on unturned necks that the are not using the expander.

The OP needs to take more measurements and study his problem and find his answers.

I bought a carbide expander from a well known die manufacture and it was only .0005 smaller than bullet diameter.

I ended up polishing the expander down that came with the die and lubing the inside of the case necks.

There is a reason why the custom die maker Whidden sells expander ball sets that vary in diameter.
Click to expand...

He's loading for a Garand....I don't think it will make much difference on paper. Different scenarios require different "fixes", I don't think this is one that requires custom Whidden expanders, or bench rest dies. Crimping probably causes just as much runout which I'm assuming (hoping) OP is doing for his M1.
 
I checked some sized unloaded brass (30-06) and a quick measurement of the out side of the neck =.326-.325
I would check the size of the neck expander it could be a expander for a 303 or 7.62x39
307 +9 +9 = .325
 
supernova said:
Pull your expander button and measure it. It should be roughly .0025" less than bullet dia. for generic dies and could be the wrong expander included with your die set.
Click to expand...

The expander is 0.3055" which is exactly 0.0025" less than bullet diameter.
I tried resizing the 3 pieces of brass without the expander in place an the neck size went down to 0.329" from 0.331"

I also have a set of RCBS 7.62x39 dies which come with expanders for both 0.311" and 0.308" bullets. They measure 0.3085" and 0.3055" respectively.
 
thump_rrr said:
The expander is 0.3055" which is exactly 0.0025" less than bullet diameter.
I tried resizing the 3 pieces of brass without the expander in place an the neck size went down to 0.329" from 0.331"

I also have a set of RCBS 7.62x39 dies which come with expanders for both 0.311" and 0.308" bullets. They measure 0.3085" and 0.3055" respectively.
Click to expand...

Will it hold a bullet at .329 thou?
 
I can think of two possibilities or a combination of the two. First, your Federal brass neck thickness seems thin. Is it possible that these once fired cases have been neck turned? I have no personal experience with the 30-06 reloading, but I know the author of the article at this link on Neck Turning, does have a lot of experience. He talks about cleaning up all brands of brass by turning down to a thickness of 0.0125". Your brass if the measurement is accurate is 0.001" under that.

"I take a slightly different approach to determining my desired neck thickness; because I use Lake City, Winchester, Remington, Lapua, Norma and Federal brass in my .30-06 loading, I’ve simply standardized on 0.0125″ as my desired neck thickness so that I’m not constantly changing the bushings in my dies. This dimension is thin enough to clean up irregularities in even the thinnest of factory brass (Winchester)..."

And the other possibility is that the die neck size is on the large side. This seems unusual, but I guess anything is possible. I find standard dies really size the neck down a lot and depend on the expander ball to get the final neck size right. Some hone their neck on the sizing die out to reduce the over sizing. Since you said your dies are new, this would not seem to be the case. It could be an out of tolerance die, depending on how much sizing RCBS put into their standard die. If you can get another neck die to try, that would be the quickest way to eliminate the die issue. It would seem to be a shame to have to buy a bushing die, but that of course would be a solution too...
 
If you read the links I posted the inside diameter of the cases varied .005 without the expander between brands of dies. (The dies neck diameter varies)

If you do the math on the Whidden expanders the smallest expander is .004 smaller than bullet diameter. (meaning you can adjust the expander to the neck diameter of the die)

Before we had gauges we gave the reloaded cartridges the bullet "push" test to see if it moves and called it done.

If you want to use your 150 pieces of Federal brass then make and use a smaller expander.

If you want "uniformity" then use one brand of brass from the same lot.

They make bushings with different inside diameters and you can vary the expanders outside diameter.


FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

I will say it again, Whidden makes their expander sets that vary .005 for a good reason.

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and chambers and dies vary in size.
 
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I agree with RonAKA, .0115 is pretty thin for a neck wall thickness. Most of the stuff I've used in 308's and -06's is .013". - .015" and when I turn I go down to about .013, never below .0125". Best of luck.
 
The brass was once fired, never turned.
I also have 100 pieces of Winchester which is also at 0.011".
There is adequate neck tension now that am passing them through the sizing die without the expander present.
I normally use Lee dies for most of my reloading while I use Redding for my precision rifles.
The only dies that they had in stock that day for 30-06 were the RCBS which is why I bought them.
I also have RCBS dies for 7.62x39 which came with expanders for both .308 and .311 projectiles and they don't seem to have this issue.
I find that the Lee dies much more neck tension by a considerable margin over the other brands.

Let's keep in mind that this is a Garand that I am reloading for.
It will not be used in competition or for hunting so spending close to $100 US for a Whidden Gunworks sizing die isn't going to happen when I can buy a set of Lee Pacesetter dies for $32.00 US which includes the Factory Crimp Die, or a 4 piece Lee Ultimate die set for $47 US.

I've had excellent results with Lee in the past.
 
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A Lee 30-06 Collet Neck Resizing Die may be an option to continue using that brass, although I don't know if you can get away with neck resizing only in a Garand... I like the collet die as it only minimally works the brass in the neck area. Good for extending the life of the brass.
 
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