HELP - need to decode my fired reload groups (pics)

Mad_Mikee

Mad_Mikee

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Looking for a bit of help trying to decode my recent load workups. I understand that none of my groups below are
horrible and are all easily MOE (minute of elk) however I'd feel more confident with my rifle and my ammo with tighter more
consistent groups.

I purchased this rifle new a few years ago and tried working up loads with 225gr Hornady Interbonds.
I didn't have much luck with this combo and seemed to spray bullets in every direction. I was discouraged and put the
rifle aside until now.

All 3-shot groups were fired off a steady rest on a concrete bench using the same shooting technique at 100 yards.

Rifle is: Rem 700 BDL (factory barrel) in 338 Winchester mag.

Reloads are:

  • Barnes TTSX 210gr
  • H4350 powder (70-72.5gr)
  • CCI 250 primers
  • Winchester brass (new)
  • bullets seated 0.060 off lands (top of case neck in the top bullet cannelure)

With my reloads in most other rifles, there is a very distinct pattern and easy to see groups which show potential and which
ones to focus on.

In this particular case, there were a bunch of very 3-shot similar groups. My first group using 70gr of powder must have had 1 crazy flyer
since I could only find 2 holes, so I reshot that load again at the end.

At the very least, I'm going to try loading up a bit of heavier charged loads for my next time out. Maybe try a 73, 73.5 and a 74gr load.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.







 
Hitzy said:
Are the first 2 shots the ones usually touching?
Click to expand...

Typically but not in all of the pictures. The barrel is free-floated and didn't warm up at all (was -1 C outside when shooting).

Unfortunately I don't remember which ones where shot in which order. I do know that each 3 shots in the group where shot within a 2 min time-frame.
 
You may not be allocating enough time between shots to get readable results. However, since it is a hunting rifle, and you are working up a hunting load, then you may have to live with the results posted - ie see which load gives you two, or possibly three quick shots with the best group.
Type A personalities like myself would want to test the loads under barrel "equilibrium" conditions, either:

- successive cold barrel shots, with sufficient cooling time to allow the barrel to return to ambient conditions. Use the wrist of your hand to confirm barrel temp. This can take up to 10 minutes.

- Fire a shot or two to let the barrel warm up, then shoot several shots for group with the barrel warm (at the same temp), by waiting a few minutes between shots and checking.

Over the years I've found that barrels cool much more quickly and evenly by pointing the gun barrel up with the action open. The resultant "stack effect" causes cool air to be drawn in the chamber, much like a wood stove works.

Finally, rifles will preferentially "tune" to a particular bullet weight. If you're not satisfied with the performance of a particular bullet, rather than spending a lot of time and money trying different loads, powders, COL's etc with that bullet, try another bullet - you may be pleasantly surprised. Additionally, I find flat based bullets generally outperform boat-tails - in fact, as I don't take shots beyond 200 y, there are no boat-tails on the property.
 
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I'd play around with seating depth. Try .08 and .04 jump to see what happens. You can also try some different primers as well but I'd only do this after seeing different seating depths can do.
 
Take 6rds of 70gr.

From a cold foul bore, shot 2rds.

Let it cool to ambient and repeat.. if each 2rds falls within the inch with the SAME POI.. you are done. Both 70gr targets show almost exact POI.. minus the 1 shot out to the right.

Your barrel may be warping when it heats up.

Once you confirm and trust this... shoot 3 groups with 3 and 4 rds... plot where each shot goes and note the pattern. Odds are the first 2 shots will end your debate with an elk but if you need more, know where those shots are likely to move to.

Jerry
 
From what I've read the tsx bullets are notoriously hard to get shooting well compared to most other bullet types. Might be that your gun just doesn't like em.

Of course, if your first two shots are at POA and touching, then maybe heat is your problem.
 
Looks like you need a click or two towards the left as well...

As a hunter your first shot will always be a cold barrel shot. Any second shot will be pretty much within seconds after that.

What about shooting at two targets? The, first page of cross points being used cold barrel shots and the same position on the second target as an immediate but aimed second shot? That'll separate your cold from warm barrel shots and let you more easily see what, if any, difference there is.
 
Suther said:
From what I've read the tsx bullets are notoriously hard to get shooting well compared to most other bullet types. Might be that your gun just doesn't like em.

Of course, if your first two shots are at POA and touching, then maybe heat is your problem.
Click to expand...

Haven't run into that issue yet.... they like going fast, and I'd recommend going down in bullet weight to go even faster.
 
Have a buddy load the gun for you, randomly have him not put a shell in. You'll see if you're flinching bad. 70gr looks like the load. If you aren't flinching, make sure everything is torqued to spec. Jerry's advice is good.
 
Assumed -

1. trigger is adjusted properly with no perceptible creep and the pull isn't too heavy.
2. scope is of decent quality, not broken and mounted correctly (securely tightened, elevation and windage adjustments at or near mid point, not at the adjustment limits).
3. scope provides precise shot placement (not a low power scope with thick cross hairs that blot out the target).
4. barrel isn't excessively copper-fouled (X bullets are notorious for doing that).
5. action is securely tightened in the stock.

Seating the bullets 1.5mm off the lands is pretty tight and shouldn't cause the fliers.

Maybe get another individual to fire a group to confirm. A shooter was disappointed with how his .257 Wby model 700 grouped (~5" at 100 yards). The trigger broke crisp but the pull weight was too heavy for my liking but I still managed a sub-inch group with his rifle. :p
 
I'd agree with the 70gr. Seems to be very similar vertical grouping indicating consistent velocity, the 3rd shot looks like either the barrel warming up, or you pulling it. You could also try shooting from a lead sled to remove you from the equation.
 
rl4930 said:
Have a buddy load the gun for you, randomly have him not put a shell in. You'll see if you're flinching bad. 70gr looks like the load. If you aren't flinching, make sure everything is torqued to spec. Jerry's advice is good.
Click to expand...

I was the only one at the range yesterday afternoon. Just me and 24 other empty benches.
 
Slamfire said:
Assumed -

1. trigger is adjusted properly with no perceptible creep and the pull isn't too heavy.
2. scope is of decent quality, not broken and mounted correctly (securely tightened, elevation and windage adjustments at or near mid point, not at the adjustment limits).
3. scope provides precise shot placement (not a low power scope with thick cross hairs that blot out the target).
4. barrel isn't excessively copper-fouled (X bullets are notorious for doing that).
5. action is securely tightened in the stock.
Click to expand...

1. trigger is nice and light just the way I like it - has a Hollands trigger spring kit in it.
2. Scope is a VX-II 4-12 40mm AO with one piece Talley mounts (I even re-leveled the scope and bore sited it before going out).
3. my fav Leupold LR duplex
4. actually checked this as well but first 2 shots typically touch so didn't think it would be a fouling issue
5. Action is bedded and barrel floated in a B&C Medalist stock
 
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