Wow! ....and the plot thickens. Thanks for posting this old rifle, and thanks to the people contributing. I posted an old time rifle a while ago. I initially researched it as best I could the night prior to a one day gun show and ended up buying it the next day. Some wonderful history attached to these artifacts.
1895 Mk.I Lee Metford Cavalry Carbine - Pics added of rear sight
- Thread starter NL-Hunter
- Start date
You are absolutely correct. Not sure how I missed it. The nosecap shown on pg 96 looks very similar to the one in question. The pictured foresight protector appears to be forward sloping and somewhat narrower. The drawings at the top of pg 97 look to be a dead ringer for the OP's. I note the forward tube is longer than those on later issued carbines and, as on the OP's, fully encloses the muzzle.
This carbine grows more interesting by the hour. Now, let's see what that rear sight can tell us.
Op, please post some closeup pictures of the nose cap, front sight and rear sight.
The pieces are beginning to fall into place. That is the nose cap depicted in the drawings on pg 97.
Also, on pg 97, Skennerton states : "During October (1900) further experiments were carried out with sights by the 3rd Dragoon Guard (ref regimental disc on the subject carbine) at Currah, comprising of Lee Enfield carbines fitted with four types of adjustable foresights- ....."
One of those four types was "Bead foresight with nosecap and hood combined, and broadened 'v‘ on the cap and backsight"
That pretty much explains the odd backksight as well.
Congratulations OP. I think you have something really special there.
Please treat us to photos of the back sight. Are you sure those numbers on the side of the backsight are someone's SIN?
Also, on pg 97, Skennerton states : "During October (1900) further experiments were carried out with sights by the 3rd Dragoon Guard (ref regimental disc on the subject carbine) at Currah, comprising of Lee Enfield carbines fitted with four types of adjustable foresights- ....."
One of those four types was "Bead foresight with nosecap and hood combined, and broadened 'v‘ on the cap and backsight"
That pretty much explains the odd backksight as well.
Congratulations OP. I think you have something really special there.
Please treat us to photos of the back sight. Are you sure those numbers on the side of the backsight are someone's SIN?
Just waiting for the dust to settle and people to make their best guesses. B-noser nailed it. It is indeed likely to be one of the four variations trialed at Currah in 1900.
The nose cap wears EFD logo which dates it post 1897. No clearing rod hole which dates it post 1899.
The production carbines used a barleycorn front sight. You will note the the one shown by the OP has a post front sight insert similar to that of an Sht.LE. (something I wanted to try).
The rear sight is a modified standard production unit. The Deep V notch (a la Mk.I* Lee metford) has been made by hand by the armourer.
I can imagine an armourer of the day behind the firing line with his tools, filing the sight and then handing it off to a firing line assistant to give to the shooter for re-testing.
The rest of the rifle looks to be untouched. Leave it that way.
On the Nock's form right hand side reinforce, there is a BR (Birmingham Repair) inspector's stamp, which suggests to me that the barrel has been removed and worked on for whatever reason (modified front ramp?).
One more note, not sure if it is relevant. The barrel length on trials carbines was 1/4 inch longer than production units at 21 inches. Moot point as the last trails carbines were made in 1893. This is not a trials carbine, it is a standard ex-service weapon with modifications.
Top ones are the two variations of 1892 pattern trials carbines. Bottom is early production Mk.I.
So you have an interesting piece that has a time and place in Enfield history. Rare, yes. Interesting, yes. Valuable, to the right collector, could be!
The nose cap wears EFD logo which dates it post 1897. No clearing rod hole which dates it post 1899.
The production carbines used a barleycorn front sight. You will note the the one shown by the OP has a post front sight insert similar to that of an Sht.LE. (something I wanted to try).
The rear sight is a modified standard production unit. The Deep V notch (a la Mk.I* Lee metford) has been made by hand by the armourer.
I can imagine an armourer of the day behind the firing line with his tools, filing the sight and then handing it off to a firing line assistant to give to the shooter for re-testing.
The rest of the rifle looks to be untouched. Leave it that way.
On the Nock's form right hand side reinforce, there is a BR (Birmingham Repair) inspector's stamp, which suggests to me that the barrel has been removed and worked on for whatever reason (modified front ramp?).
One more note, not sure if it is relevant. The barrel length on trials carbines was 1/4 inch longer than production units at 21 inches. Moot point as the last trails carbines were made in 1893. This is not a trials carbine, it is a standard ex-service weapon with modifications.
Top ones are the two variations of 1892 pattern trials carbines. Bottom is early production Mk.I.
So you have an interesting piece that has a time and place in Enfield history. Rare, yes. Interesting, yes. Valuable, to the right collector, could be!
Wow, detailed info for sure. I will probably be selling the rifle at some point, but would like to see if I can source the firing pin screw and the screws that the leather sight protector was attached with. Does anyone have the specs for the screws mentioned? Are there any sources in Canada where I may be able to get them?
Great...thanks a lot.... do you know how much sleep we lost trying to figure this out ????? You could have prevented this...
Ok ok i admit i didn't loose any sleep...i slept like a bear
I'm still wondering where you get all those infos...you sure you dont make them out as you go ?
jkNL-Hunter, finding a cocking screw might be hard...unless you are lucky and someone here has one they are willing to part with.
If everything fails contact Scott Stonehill at custonscrewsandmore dot com... he will make you one. Although a new one will look new and out of place on the rifle.
If you are lucky he might even have an original, he has some original parts .
If it was me i would buy a complete bolt, just to get the right screw lol ... i think that rifle deserves it. You can resale the bolt with a minimum, if no lost at all after.
As for the leather protector screws i have no idea what they even look like...but it might be possible none where ever attached on a trial rifle ?? (englishman...dont let us wait plz)
Lee Enfield carbines in 1896 came with a leather sight protector. Seems that the sight leaf was easy to snag sliding the carbine into its scabbard. Damage to the leaf would result. So the leather sight protector came as standard on all 1896 carbines and retrofitted to those of earlier manufacture. The refit program happened around 1897. At the same time, the D ring was removed from the wrist socket.
So, if a Lee Metford has the dust cover screws, it usually means that it was in service around this time period and has been back to the factory for the upgrade.
My second pattern trials carbine came fitted with the screws. They are stumpy little wood screws with a domed 'countersunk' style head. One is fractionally longer than the other.
One snippet of info, which I am trying to confirm, is that Canadian service carbines had the cover and screws removed in 1899. Which would explain why I seldom see an ex-Canadian service carbine with the screws still in place.
So, if a Lee Metford has the dust cover screws, it usually means that it was in service around this time period and has been back to the factory for the upgrade.
My second pattern trials carbine came fitted with the screws. They are stumpy little wood screws with a domed 'countersunk' style head. One is fractionally longer than the other.
One snippet of info, which I am trying to confirm, is that Canadian service carbines had the cover and screws removed in 1899. Which would explain why I seldom see an ex-Canadian service carbine with the screws still in place.
Thanks for info so far. As you can see, the holes are there for the leather cover screws. If this was a Canadian service rifle, would it not have Canadian Marks somewhere? This may explain the void of nitro proofs if it was in Canadian service. Remember also that NL joined Canada in late 40's and it may even have been in service here before we joined. Maybe even Newfoundland Constabulary had some of these?
Question is if it was in service outside UK, I assume there would be armourers marks to reflect that...
Will get some pics of rear sight during weekend sometime, busy schedule this weekend.
Question is if it was in service outside UK, I assume there would be armourers marks to reflect that...
Will get some pics of rear sight during weekend sometime, busy schedule this weekend.
Any idea of production numbers for this piece? What I have read is that there were between 10000 and 20000 Cav Carbines made in this model. I can only assume that one with these mods would be a LOT less common.
Trying to search for these screws mentioned earlier, do I search using magazine lee-metford or magazine lee-enfield?
Info out there seems to have the two overlapped...
Trying to search for these screws mentioned earlier, do I search using magazine lee-metford or magazine lee-enfield?
Info out there seems to have the two overlapped...
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the Newfoundland Constabulary had a mounted unit from 1873 to 1951 .
You should consider contacting the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Historical Society . they have contact info on there website.
they may have pictures of the mounted unit with weapons from that time or there equipment .
Nfld also was scrambling to get weapons for training for WW1, and WWII for that matter. I've seen pictures of my grandfather training for WWII with a p 14 or 17 but he had a ross bayonet on this belt.
You should consider contacting the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Historical Society . they have contact info on there website.
they may have pictures of the mounted unit with weapons from that time or there equipment .
Nfld also was scrambling to get weapons for training for WW1, and WWII for that matter. I've seen pictures of my grandfather training for WWII with a p 14 or 17 but he had a ross bayonet on this belt.
Thanks for that info Gaff. Will try that. I was told this was a war bring back but hard to find out what war. It may very well have ended up in Pleasantville for WW1 training and later deployed. At the time they probably took what they could get and these may have been sent from storage in UK.
Having little luck sourcing parts for this, anyone know of a source for the screws mentioned? Have a machinist locally that can make screws but need dimensions. Would prefer used ones as they would complement the age period better.
I've never seen the screws in the wold before, but they were used on other guns too. Snider cavalry carbines had them, as well as the Martini carbines of the period. You might find a poster with the screws still in place you could rob.
They are not just a regular wood screw, and they are usually also marked with either factory proof or a small broad arrow or arrow WD marking.
Wow, see these for sale at 2000 - 3000. More people looking than selling. Maybe the dust cover screws are not that important as they were probably removed before repurposed.
The firing pin screw is, would like fore someone that own one to supply the specs and pictures...
The firing pin screw is, would like fore someone that own one to supply the specs and pictures...
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Firing pin screws are all over the place. The problem you will have is that if you re-index the cut for yours, your pin protrusion might end up being off. It's likely your firing pin was replaced with one from another gun. Either because the original one broke, of a legion or something snipped it to display the gun at one point.
I would just take it to a decent gunsmith that's been around for a while. Any smith that was in business before 1997 will have a box full of Enfield bolts from guys & widows turning in ratty sporters back when it cost $25 a piece to register them (back in '97, $25 was a hefty sum and almost nobody collected these things at the time).
This way, the smith can re-index the pin, check pin protrusion, and if it's off, he might have a few other pins to swap in until one indexes. Word case, he can re-cut the indexing crescent and install the lock screw. Should not be an expensive job.
I would recommend Gunco in Ottawa for this kind of work if you are ever near there, or possibly ship them your bolt. Jason works on TONS of classic Enfields and has a good stock of repair parts.
