Modern Hunter jamming issue

[cr5]

Surplus? If it comes in plain cardboard boxes with no brand name just weird numbers it's surplus. If it comes in a battle pack it's surplus.
Less than $20 per box of commercial is cheap and you shouldn't expect much for accuracy but occasionally you'll get lucky and it will shoot decently out of your rifle.
I agree with Epoxy7 that there may be some type of geometry issue since the rifle should be able to reliably strip most FMJ or HPBT from the magazine even if it doesn't produce good groups with certain ammunition. One of the MH's I spent a couple afternoons with definitely didn't like soft point ammo but was fairly reliable with FMJ and tipped bullets from Hornady and Nosler but it did have the occasional problem with those as well while my AR-10 (Mega billet upper/lower and Ranier ultra-match barrel) happily gobbled up anything I fed it. The MH may not have liked the XCR-M pistol mag we were using though so it's really hard to tell where the problem was without spending more time with one.

My comments about automotive lubes in firearms was more in reply to Ricks comment about someone using gear oil in his MH. I've never bothered with anything but lubricants specifically made for firearms as I find there are enough of them to choose from for use in summer and winter and I've never had any strange wear in a firearm that seemed like it wasn't being lubricated well.

 

[Epoxy7]

Surplus? If it comes in plain cardboard boxes with no brand name just weird numbers it's surplus. If it comes in a battle pack it's surplus.
Less than $20 per box of commercial is cheap and you shouldn't expect much for accuracy but occasionally you'll get lucky and it will shoot decently out of your rifle.
I agree with Epoxy7 that there may be some type of geometry issue since the rifle should be able to reliably strip most FMJ or HPBT from the magazine even if it doesn't produce good groups with certain ammunition. One of the MH's I spent a couple afternoons with definitely didn't like soft point ammo but was fairly reliable with FMJ and tipped bullets from Hornady and Nosler but it did have the occasional problem with those as well while my AR-10 (Mega billet upper/lower and Ranier ultra-match barrel) happily gobbled up anything I fed it. The MH may not have liked the XCR-M pistol mag we were using though so it's really hard to tell where the problem was without spending more time with one.

My comments about automotive lubes in firearms was more in reply to Ricks comment about someone using gear oil in his MH. I've never bothered with anything but lubricants specifically made for firearms as I find there are enough of them to choose from for use in summer and winter and I've never had any strange wear in a firearm that seemed like it wasn't being lubricated well.

Fair enough about the oil. I just have flash backs to that horrible Rem oil I once used. If turns into a yellow almost varnish if left in storage for a long time. Some of the other stuff that's designed for firearms has also let me down. Don't get me started on how some of this stuff gums up in extreme cold when I was in a more Northern location. G96 and a full synthetic high end auto oil have worked exceptionally for me. I could see how some non suitable alternatives could cause issues. Running straight g96 and soaking the parts is good advice by ATRS. That also works very well.

 

[patsow87]

Are most of the accuracy issues with the Proof Research CF barrel rifles ? If so could the CF barrel be the issue ?http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=172524

 

[gadget]

Are most of the accuracy issues with the Proof Research CF barrel rifles ? If so could the CF barrel be the issue ?http://forum.snipershide.info/showthread.php?t=172524

Recently I had a custom rifle built by Tactical Ordnance on a Defiance Action & Proof Research 16" barrel 1-10 twist 308, I am not a world class shooter or qualified for Camp Perry, but my barrel will consistently shoot 1/2MOA with RUAG Swiss P Match ammunition, off the bench using a Nightforce Optic & Trigger Tech trigger.



Gun model courtesy of mebiuspower

gadget

 

[beltfed]

Just curious- what qualifies as "crap ammo"? Surely this or any other rifle should be able to feed commercial ammo and give decent groups.

I have no horse in this race, but blaming commercial ammo for the issues discussed in this thread seems... lame.

Most commercial .308 ammunition is designed to give good performance from a bolt action rifle.
Bolt guns do not have to contend with a gas impulse; as such they are far more forgiving and deal with the pressures created by the ammo considerably better than a gas gun.
The MH is, for all intents and purposes, no different than an AR-10 in that regard. It needs to be fed the correct diet.
As a handloader, I would never feed my SR-25 my handloads for my TRG-22, and as a knowledgable shooter I would never feed it off the shelf .308 ammo without knowing the pressures it was creating.
There is enough info on the net about loading for M1 Garands and M-14s that it isn't worth dredging up here, but the concepts are the same. People with these rifles should be educating themselves on care and feeding of an auto loader. Bullet weight in conjunction with powder and burn rates absolutely matter with an auto - boltguns, not so much.

Conversely to .308, most commercial .223 is well suited to AR-15s due to their widespread popularity, but the principles are the same. There is commercial .223 hunting ammo out there that isn't well suited to the AR platform and beats the sh!t out of the rifle.

The good thing is that the USAMU have been using AR-15s and to a smaller degree, AR-10s for quite some time, and there is decent amounts of info on proper handloading techniques out there for these things.
If I was to run commercial ammo through an AR-10 or a MH, I'd probably start my search at the Hornady factory ammo tuned for M-14s - it is in the right 'band width' for the big ARs.

I wouldn't feed steel cased ammo in any rifle I cared about, but ymmv.

 

[6MT]

Most commercial .308 ammunition is designed to give good performance from a bolt action rifle.
Bolt guns do not have to contend with a gas impulse; as such they are far more forgiving and deal with the pressures created by the ammo considerably better than a gas gun.
The MH is, for all intents and purposes, no different than an AR-10 in that regard. It needs to be fed the correct diet.
As a handloader, I would never feed my SR-25 my handloads for my TRG-22, and as a knowledgable shooter I would never feed it off the shelf .308 ammo without knowing the pressures it was creating.
There is enough info on the net about loading for M1 Garands and M-14s that it isn't worth dredging up here, but the concepts are the same. People with these rifles should be educating themselves on care and feeding of an auto loader. Bullet weight in conjunction with powder and burn rates absolutely matter with an auto - boltguns, not so much.

Conversely to .308, most commercial .223 is well suited to AR-15s due to their widespread popularity, but the principles are the same. There is commercial .223 hunting ammo out there that isn't well suited to the AR platform and beats the sh!t out of the rifle.

The good thing is that the USAMU have been using AR-15s and to a smaller degree, AR-10s for quite some time, and there is decent amounts of info on proper handloading techniques out there for these things.
If I was to run commercial ammo through an AR-10 or a MH, I'd probably start my search at the Hornady factory ammo tuned for M-14s - it is in the right 'band width' for the big ARs.

I wouldn't feed steel cased ammo in any rifle I cared about, but ymmv.

Thank goodness for some common sense. Finally.

Nice post.

 

[patsow87]

Recently I had a custom rifle built by Tactical Ordnance on a Defiance Action & Proof Research 16" barrel 1-10 twist 308, I am not a world class shooter or qualified for Camp Perry, but my barrel will consistently shoot 1/2MOA with RUAG Swiss P Match ammunition, off the bench using a Nightforce Optic & Trigger Tech trigger.



Gun model courtesy of mebiuspower

gadget

Nice Rifle!!! Do the groupings stay similar after the barrel heats up from more prolonged shooting ?

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Nice Rifle!!! Do the groupings stay similar after the barrel heats up from more prolonged shooting ?

My personal experience with the Proof CFW barrels is that they do not suffer from heat deflection as badly as a conventional barrel does. In a 10 round string of shots fired 10 to 15 seconds apart from a 300 Norma, the POI is all well within the .5 MOA that the rifle produces consistently.

On another note, IF we did not firmly believe in the product we would not offer it. The last thing we need is to have a stigma for poor accuracy like another company has with their CFW barrelled rifles.

 

[play.soccer]

Would you guys consider this Aguila .308 brass cased ammo to be "crap ammo" not fit for a modern hunter?

Or how about this PMC .308 brass cased.

Has anyone tried the Aguila ammo?



I find I can shoot Federal Fusion cheapy in my MH no problem but that was only to get it on paper and some practicing so I didn't waste my premium hunting ammo.

 

[ntm]

It's one if not the cheapest AR308 BCG you can get. With a known weak/short service life for the extracter spring. My $1500 DPMS LR308 has one. DPMS has even gone to the GII and used a new elaster polymer to insure there wasn't the same issue with spring.

It's fine for a build or consumer grade target rifle providing the user knows it's weakness. I just wouldn't expect to see one in anything considered high end. A good builder/hobbiest part but far from high end.

They make a retrofit for the older bcg that uses an elastomer spring.

 

[Epoxy7]

They make a retrofit for the older bcg that uses an elastomer spring.

That's good to know! Thanks ntm.

That LR308 was my first AR308 rifle. At the time we really only had a couple choices. The DPMS was the cost effective entry consumer grade target rifle. The Armalite was twice the price. Then Armalite prices dropped and it was a different story. LMT and a bunch of high end stuff entered the market. Today we have the G2. The AR308 has really come a long way since I first bought my DPMS LR308.

 

[Epoxy7]

...

On another note, IF we did not firmly believe in the product we would not offer it. The last thing we need is to have a stigma for poor accuracy like another company has with their CFW barrelled rifles.

In all fairness, the modern hunter isn't really known for being as accurate as expected. I know the AR308 world isn't as well known by most as the AR15 world but the AR308 has been predominantly a precision semi auto for a long time now. Match barrels are nothing new for this platform. Our own military was fielding AR10t rifles back in 2004 while in Afghanistan. The Americans used KAC SR25 rifles and I've heard there were some Armalites in a few areas. LMT also was present with the UK forces. All were used as tactical precision rifles with great success. These weren't used as battle rifles.

When I see a flier from a high quality AR308 with good match ammo, this is what I expect to see: Note: the squares on all targets are 1". Shot at 100 metres not yards. Approximately 109 yards. 109.361 is the actual conversion.

That's a 5 round group shot at 100 metres off a bipod with back bag and using a Burris fullfield II 3-9x at 9x. The rounds were 175 grain smk done to Federal gold specs. They weren't tuned for the rifle. It's a round I use in my bolt action 5R milspec.

Here's a group with some off the shelf 168 grain match ammo. Again 5 at 100 metres from a bipod.

There's no magic to this. An Armalite AR10, DPMS LR308 etc with a match barrel and match trigger will do this.

Here'a another example of a "flier". With this "flier" I was shooting inbetween estimated 20 km/h wind gusts that were going directly down range. Frankly the gusts could have been more than 20 km/h as they were pretty good. The only reason I bothered to shoot was due to the calm in between the shots. Plus it was a pretty unique wind condition I hadn't seen at that range before. I figured what the heck give it a try. The 4th shot the gust hit just before I fired. Hence the change in point of impact. Next round was again right in there with the others. This is with a lowly DPMS Gen1 LR308. Trigger was replaced with NM RRA, otherwise it's stock. Today I would go with a G2 over the G1 without thinking twice about it. Cost wise my G2 Recon I bought in the last few years was $2000.

5 rounds 100 metres. 167 off the shelf match ammo. Zeiss conquest at 20X, bag for front and bean bag at back.

Anyways this is what those of us who have been shooting these AR308 rifles expect when there is a flier. .5 moa and in many cases sub .5 moa isn't that uncommon with the right ammo/rifle/conditions/shooter. sub 1 moa should be a given. A flier should ruin your group to about 1 moa. Not 1.5 etc.

With regards to malfunctions etc. The Armalite rifles originally had issues with their gen1 mag as it was a modified M14 mag due to the US assault weapon ban. The gen2 AR10B mag came out in 2006 and has worked very well. Any other mag issues I've had with my SR25/Pmag systems has been a result of garbage DPMS mags. Gen3 pmags have been no issue, KAC/LMT mags have been good as well as the 10 round pistol mags.

With regards to rifle testing before leaving a factory. My KAC SR25 ECR 20" came with a 5 round test target that was .913 moa using Win match ammo. Frankly any "match ammo" by Winchester or Remington hasn't shot well in any rifle I've owned. The rifle also came with a booklet "Weapon record book" which detailed the number of rounds fired before leaving the factory. A total of 78 rounds were fired prior to leaving the factory. Win match 168 for qualify and 150 grain ball ammo for function. A total of 60 rounds of 150 grain ball ammo is fired through the SR25 ECR before leaving the factory to test for reliability.

I seem to recall KevinB posting a group using 167 match ammo in his SR25 and it looks sub .5 moa to me. Other well known AR308 rifles for accuracy include the Larue OBR rifles.

Again, this is what those of us who have been shooting these types of rifles for a fair amount of time, expect to be possible. 1.5 moa 5 round groups with 1 moa 3 round groups was what I was shooting with my Kel Tec RFB. Coincidentally the RFB was a partial trade for my SR25. Which is the only reason I have a SR25 as it's price is on the extreme side like the Modern Hunter. That being said the KAC SR25 does live up to the expectations.

 

[Shibby!]

Glad it's been said.

No idea where this precision talk came from.

 

[Sqr]

In all fairness, the modern hunter isn't really known for being as accurate as expected. I know the AR308 world isn't as well known by most as the AR15 world but the AR308 has been predominantly a precision semi auto for a long time now. Match barrels are nothing new for this platform. Our own military was fielding AR10t rifles back in 2004 while in Afghanistan. The Americans used KAC SR25 rifles and I've heard there were some Armalites in a few areas. LMT also was present with the UK forces. All were used as tactical precision rifles with great success. These weren't used as battle rifles.

When I see a flier from a high quality AR308 with good match ammo, this is what I expect to see: Note: the squares on all targets are 1". Shot at 100 metres not yards. Approximately 109 yards. 109.361 is the actual conversion.

That's a 5 round group shot at 100 metres off a bipod with back bag and using a Burris fullfield II 3-9x at 9x. The rounds were 175 grain smk done to Federal gold specs. They weren't tuned for the rifle. It's a round I use in my bolt action 5R milspec.

Here's a group with some off the shelf 168 grain match ammo. Again 5 at 100 metres from a bipod.

There's no magic to this. An Armalite AR10, DPMS LR308 etc with a match barrel and match trigger will do this.

Here'a another example of a "flier". With this "flier" I was shooting inbetween estimated 20 km/h wind gusts that were going directly down range. Frankly the gusts could have been more than 20 km/h as they were pretty good. The only reason I bothered to shoot was due to the calm in between the shots. Plus it was a pretty unique wind condition I hadn't seen at that range before. I figured what the heck give it a try. The 4th shot the gust hit just before I fired. Hence the change in point of impact. Next round was again right in there with the others. This is with a lowly DPMS Gen1 LR308. Trigger was replaced with NM RRA, otherwise it's stock. Today I would go with a G2 over the G1 without thinking twice about it. Cost wise my G2 Recon I bought in the last few years was $2000.

5 rounds 100 metres. 167 off the shelf match ammo. Zeiss conquest at 20X, bag for front and bean bag at back.

Anyways this is what those of us who have been shooting these AR308 rifles expect when there is a flier. .5 moa and in many cases sub .5 moa isn't that uncommon with the right ammo/rifle/conditions/shooter. sub 1 moa should be a given. A flier should ruin your group to about 1 moa. Not 1.5 etc.

With regards to malfunctions etc. The Armalite rifles originally had issues with their gen1 mag as it was a modified M14 mag due to the US assault weapon ban. The gen2 AR10B mag came out in 2006 and has worked very well. Any other mag issues I've had with my SR25/Pmag systems has been a result of garbage DPMS mags. Gen3 pmags have been no issue, KAC/LMT mags have been good as well as the 10 round pistol mags.

With regards to rifle testing before leaving a factory. My KAC SR25 ECR 20" came with a 5 round test target that was .913 moa using Win match ammo. Frankly any "match ammo" by Winchester or Remington hasn't shot well in any rifle I've owned. The rifle also came with a booklet "Weapon record book" which detailed the number of rounds fired before leaving the factory. A total of 78 rounds were fired prior to leaving the factory. Win match 168 for qualify and 150 grain ball ammo for function. A total of 60 rounds of 150 grain ball ammo is fired through the SR25 ECR before leaving the factory to test for reliability.

I seem to recall KevinB posting a group using 167 match ammo in his SR25 and it looks sub .5 moa to me. Other well known AR308 rifles for accuracy include the Larue OBR rifles.

Again, this is what those of us who have been shooting these types of rifles for a fair amount of time, expect to be possible. 1.5 moa 5 round groups with 1 moa 3 round groups was what I was shooting with my Kel Tec RFB. Coincidentally the RFB was a partial trade for my SR25. Which is the only reason I have a SR25 as it's price is on the extreme side like the Modern Hunter. That being said the KAC SR25 does live up to the expectations.

Yes the AR10 is accurate but how many Canadian deer or Moose has it dispatched?

 

[Epoxy7]

...

 

[Bartok5]

Even taking into account its NR status, in my view the MH is over-priced for the disappointing reliability and accuracy that is being attained in the field by the average owner. I understand that it is a very expensive-to-produce, low-rate production rifle. Regardless of production cost however, at the end of the day the juice has to be worth the squeeze. Once the MH's feed geometry is rectified to permit the use of a wider range of commonly-available .308 AR magazines, and once accuracy reaches parity with other high-end .308 ARs (KAC, LMT, Larue, etc), the MH may be worth considering for my hard-earned $$. But it is simply not there yet. If I were in the market for a NR .308 AR right now, I would be taking a hard look at the Troy Pump-Action Rifle (PAR). By all accounts, accuracy and reliability are both excellent with the PAR right out of the box at a reasonable price-point. The same cannot (yet) be said of the MH. NR status is nice, but it isn't everything. Nor is the MH the only game in town.

FWIW, just my $.02 as the owner of several .308 Armalite and Armalite-style rifles.

 

[Big70b]

Get rid of plastic mags and switch to steel. I have been running steel mags after my first range day with no more issues.

 

[BioPace]

Yes the AR10 is accurate but how many Canadian deer or Moose has it dispatched?

How is that relevant? Are you saying that NR rifles don't have to be accurate?

 

[thump_rrr]

How is that relevant? Are you saying that NR rifles don't have to be accurate?

No but he is saying that the whole reason for the existence of the Modern Hunter is the inability to use the AR-10 and it's variants outside of an authorized shooting range for anything other than target practice and competition.

I don't own nor do I have a burning desire to own a Modern Hunter but for me to own one it must be very accurate.
I have not seen that demonstrated up to this point.

 

[Uisge]

I'd like to take a moment to say thanks ATRS for giving me an option I badly wanted with a Made In Canada stamped on it. Better yet made in Alberta. I love it, it shoots better than I can, and it is fun to shoot. Mine wont pop a hirtenberger every time but you don't need a rocket surgery diploma to change a hammer spring if that really bothers you. It's a known Timney affliction and not just a modern Hunter issue. Sure maybe there is more accurate or more reliable ar-10's but for me you can have em. I love my MH.