Neck Cracks

Dear Ron AKA

I'm impressed and I'm sure everyone reading this is impressed that you know more than the firearms industry, the firearms manufactures and the reloading companies. (and their "old wives tales")

Personally I do not care if you smear whale snot on your cases or care about how smart you think you are.

You and John Barsness the person who wrote the article do do not have any of the pressure measuring equipment used by the firearms industry for testing to back up your claims.

Hopefully the people reading this will believe the material I posted from Lyman, Sierra and the U.S. Army above and below and not the shade tree advice from someone who thinks he knows more than the firearms industry.

Below from Springfield Armory

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Below is from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms, what is described are chamber pressure readings taken at the base of the case using the base crusher method.

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Below is from the H.P.White Testing Laboratory.

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Below the effects of excessive bolt thrust.

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Ron AKA said:
I am getting a feeling that you don't get it, don't want to get it, and I've wasted my time on you. Hopefully others will actually take the time to understand the issue and actually learn something.
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Actually from the email and PMs being sent to me everyone of them thinks you have brown eyes. Meaning your full of fecal debris like sunray. Laugh2

Your the one who does not get it Ron AKA, show me any factory ammo that comes lubed from the factory.

And the information I have posted is not my opinion, it is facts printed by the firearms industry.

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Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does"
 
K-C said:
lmfao !! - good one Ed! ;)
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Below the American CMP reloading forum (Civilian Marksmanship Program)

sunray's last posting.................so sad :evil:

sunray_zpshj1fj6gj.png


Lyrics:"You Can Have Him"

I don't want him you can have him
He's not worth fighting for
Besides there's plenty more where he came from
I don't want him you can have him…
I'm giving him the sack
And he can go right back where he came from
 
Well I figured out neck crack problem annealed my brass , I had a load with some accubonds that shot excellent and was shooting them in colder weather than when I did my load development on them and the bolt started getting sticky.Got looking at the case and its getting tell tale ring on my qual -cart brand new brass that is 6.5 -06. I FL sized them and left the shoulder alittle long just so bolt was a little stiff.
Took the rifle over to Ron Smith and the barrel is done,he said its getting ruff in the barrel and that's whats creating to much pressure.
Thanks for the help guys
 
Have not read the remainder of this thread yet but some great stuff! Thanks to everyone for your contributions.

Ron AKA said:
If you don't get the neck/shoulder up to a very slight dull red in the dark, you are wasting your time. You have to get the temperature up to 750F for a few seconds, which is where brass just starts to show a glow IN THE DARK. Have a look at this article.
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I read that article and have copied two passages below, which seems to contradict your statement. Perhaps you misinterpreted?

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.

With this setup, the neck will actually reach a temperature between 750 and 800 degrees. Remember, it's the combination of time AND temperature that does the job. We have raised the temperature sufficiently to be able to anneal the case necks in 6 to 8 seconds.
 
NVShooter said:
I read that article and have copied two passages below, which seems to contradict your statement. Perhaps you misinterpreted?

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.

With this setup, the neck will actually reach a temperature between 750 and 800 degrees. Remember, it's the combination of time AND temperature that does the job. We have raised the temperature sufficiently to be able to anneal the case necks in 6 to 8 seconds.
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The brass glowing a faint orange at about 950 degrees F is probably true in daylight. At 1000 F for sure, steel, brass and any metal will start to glow red. Aluminum will be liquid at that point. I worked for Alcan aluminum at one time, and have seen lots of it glowing in the furnace.

But you don't want 950 F. That is way too hot. You want 750 F if you want to anneal in 5 seconds or so. That is why I anneal in the dark or virtually dark. Bring it up to a dull red glow that you can see in the dark all around the neck and shoulder, and then you are done heating. It will get the time to anneal in before it cools off by itself. You do not dump it into water or on a damp cloth to heat treat it. You only do that to kill the temperature and keep it from going too far down the case. The last thing you want to do is anneal the head.
 
Ron AKA said:
The brass glowing a faint orange at about 950 degrees F is probably true in daylight. At 1000 F for sure, steel, brass and any metal will start to glow red. Aluminum will be liquid at that point. I worked for Alcan aluminum at one time, and have seen lots of it glowing in the furnace.

But you don't want 950 F. That is way too hot. You want 750 F if you want to anneal in 5 seconds or so. That is why I anneal in the dark or virtually dark. Bring it up to a dull red glow that you can see in the dark all around the neck and shoulder, and then you are done heating. It will get the time to anneal in before it cools off by itself. You do not dump it into water or on a damp cloth to heat treat it. You only do that to kill the temperature and keep it from going too far down the case. The last thing you want to do is anneal the head.
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If you are heating with an induction type heat source in the dark maybe just as the neck starts to glow might be 750 deg, but when using a torch with the flame near the neck by the time you see glowing the case is cooked.
 
Purple shoulder said:
If you are heating with an induction type heat source in the dark maybe just as the neck starts to glow might be 750 deg, but when using a torch with the flame near the neck by the time you see glowing the case is cooked.
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False. Look at the neck/shoulder, not the flame. There are way more cases that are under annealed than those that are "cooked".
 
Annealing without Tempilaq is at best a random guess. Also, I have never seen any published material that states how long it should be held at 750. If anyone has a valid reference I'd love to see it. Even the Accurate shooter article appears to contradict itself.
 
MikeTheRock said:
Annealing without Tempilaq is at best a random guess. Also, I have never seen any published material that states how long it should be held at 750. If anyone has a valid reference I'd love to see it. Even the Accurate shooter article appears to contradict itself.
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Here is what I believe is a credible link.

Annealing Case Necks

I have used the Tempilstick approach and confirmed temperatures for myself. However, I find it way to awkward to use on every case. Dull red in the dark for a few seconds is my criteria.
 
MikeTheRock said:
Annealing without Tempilaq is at best a random guess. Also, I have never seen any published material that states how long it should be held at 750. If anyone has a valid reference I'd love to see it. Even the Accurate shooter article appears to contradict itself.
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If you look closer you will find virtually no credible published information on what temperature to use in the first place. Lots of claims and suggestions, from Hornady's 475F to people who want a visible glow (about 800C), but I challenge you to show me one source that actually has a strong arguement as to why the temperature they give is correct.
 
BattleRife said:
If you look closer you will find virtually no credible published information on what temperature to use in the first place. Lots of claims and suggestions, from Hornady's 475F to people who want a visible glow (about 800C), but I challenge you to show me one source that actually has a strong arguement as to why the temperature they give is correct.
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Yes I totally agree, that is why I find all of the lengthy discussions about annealing kind of amusing. To be fair I anneal, and I use a Bench Source and do all my brass in batches after the same number of firings to try to at least keep them all consistent (even if they are all wrong at least they are the same), but I am also guessing as to how much to actually anneal to affect the brass optimally.

There are LOTS of reliable sources out there in the industrial world and I'm sure a materials engineer or metallurgist could tell us what a proper process would be. Anyone that makes burst discs for instance would know very well. Cartridge brass is a well known material that has well known properties (see links below if you want to nerd out a bit). From what I understand consistent/proper annealing for any given application is not only a function of time and heat, but also how extensively the material was work hardened to begin with. The grain size and other properties that high end manufacturers like Lapua are targeting are probably closely guarded trade secrets, as are their exact tempering and annealing methods to meet those specifications.

But anyway, my point is color or even using methods that give fairly precise dwell time and temperature is still probably only a crude approach at best. But hey, I guess if we are careful to not anneal the head the worst we can do is make the neck too soft or fool ourselves that we are doing much at all. I'll keep doing it until something better comes along!

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6341

https://www.astm.org/Standards/B36.htm
 
Can anyone confirm my method? I found it on youtube. I hold a case in my hand at the web and rotate it back and forth in a propane flame while in a dark room. In short order (7 half rotations) the neck/shoulder junction turns a dull orange at which point I drop on a wet towel to cool.

When I seat bullets the stroke is nice and smooth so I assume the work hardening had been temporarily eliminated.
 
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