Question about Overall Lenghts

[Suputin]

Incorrect COAL, aka "cartridge over all length" can result in out of spec head spacing.....bad. Incorrect COAL, aka "case over all length" can lead to overpreassure due to impingement of the case opening past the free bore.......very bad.

Not arguing that something will go wrong ever time but it may at some time when the moons align. It's just like walking across the street texting on CGN with your head down.....you may make it and you may not make it. Why tempt fate?

COAL stands for Cartridge Overall Length. It has zip to do with the length of the case itself. Case length is case length.

Go look up the definition of Headspace. It has ZERO to do with COAL.

You also do not understand what the freebore is. The case would need to be prob .200" or more over length in order to extend past the freebore, which is simply impossible.

 

[H4831]

Don, crimp in the cannelure, that's what it is for. You didn't say what weight bullets you're using, but who made the bullet doesn't matter, just its weight.
You are using what is probably the best powder for a 35 Remington, so I am sure the bit of compression that may occur is meaningless.
I have also loaded LVR powder in the 35 Remington with 200 grain bullets and crimped in the groove. No problems, in fact its an ideal combination.
How much powder are you using and what weight bullet?

 

[donb]

Don, crimp in the cannelure, that's what it is for. You didn't say what weight bullets you're using, but who made the bullet doesn't matter, just its weight.
You are using what is probably the best powder for a 35 Remington, so I am sure the bit of compression that may occur is meaningless.
I have also loaded LVR powder in the 35 Remington with 200 grain bullets and crimped in the groove. No problems, in fact its an ideal combination.
How much powder are you using and what weight bullet?

So glad you decided to chime in!
I am using the Hornady 200 gn ftx.
I do like the LVR, I don't have much experience (3-4 other powders) but it flows and meters the best. I have loaded a series of 37, 38,5, 40, and 41.4 (max load compressed) according to the Hodgdon guide on their site.
Last night I took 2 of the 37 gn ones (not crimped) out the back door and popped them into a target at about 40 yards. They fed from the magazine and chambered just fine and the holes were pretty much touching. So they shoot acceptably.
Thanks for your input. I am going to run them back through the seating die and creep them back to put the case rim into the cannelure, crimp them and head to the range.
So.......doing that, throws all that stuff about "jump to the lands" out the window?
db

 

[bigbull]

Questions about overall length. Which is represented as C.O.L? So if I understand correctly the pros and cons. Too long, won't feed properly, mag jams, not enough pressure could cause a squib or poor performance? Too short, too much pressure = hand grenade.

Now I may be slices hairs here. Currently pondering my 9mm loads. I'm using a 124gr RN plated CamPro. Win 231 4.45 grains or 0.43 cc. CamPro data is 1.120 Lee Modern says 1.090 and max 1.69.

So I erred on the side of caution to start and was crimping half crimp at 1.165. No feed issue. couple thousand rounds in 3 different pistols.

What i'm wondering is if seating so far out is reducing the pressure enough to drop the power/velocity/kick whatever you want to call it. I'm guessing that in order to achieve optimum safe pressure and velocity I probably should seat as close to data as possible. I'm going to try some 1.130 and see how it feels. The reason why I was seating so far out was to create a safe buffer for inconsistencies I had with my old bench. New solid bench and now I seem to be nailing my lengths bang on pun intended.

radmacks, It seems that you have a grasp theoretically on the pros and cons.
Half Crimping ....! Not sure how you would measure that perhaps a light crimp is a better description.
Crimping is a very useful operation in accuracy, consistency and reliability often misunderstood as an operation that just keeps your bullet in place but once you get the jinx of this proccedure you can change things like P.O.I., pressure, accuracy and feeding reliability.
Understanding the mechanics is vital to this operation. It is very gratifying (for me) to see results on the target by simply manipulating the type or extend of the crimp at times being able to move your P.O.I. around the target at will.

Question: How did your bench become a factor in your COL ?

BB

 

[radmacks]

radmacks, It seems that you have a grasp theoretically on the pros and cons.
Half Crimping ....! Not sure how you would measure that perhaps a light crimp is a better description.
Crimping is a very useful operation in accuracy, consistency and reliability often misunderstood as an operation that just keeps your bullet in place but once you get the jinx of this proccedure you can change things like P.O.I., pressure, accuracy and feeding reliability.
Understanding the mechanics is vital to this operation. It is very gratifying (for me) to see results on the target by simply manipulating the type or extend of the crimp at times being able to move your P.O.I. around the target at will.

Question: How did your bench become a factor in your COL ?

BB

When I said half crimp vs full, I was referencing the half turn vs full turn on Lee factory crimp die, yes light vs heavy. The press was mounted directly to a steel bench and it flexed flex crazy which made the pull on the press handle inconsistent. I have since firmed it up with a sheet of MDF.

After reading through the thread I think I will back my seating out a bit.

 

[H4831]

Hi Don, regarding the 35 Remington, I had some old CIL factory loaded rounds, with 200 grain bullets, that were at least fifty years old. So I chronographed them and seven of the old rounds averaged 2054 fps. To me, that means the 35 Remington was designed to run over 2,000 fps, with 200 grain bullets.
Hodgdon on line show a lot of powders that will get more velocity than that, according to them, but in the case of 3031, 200 grain round nose, they show 37.5 grains as getting 2110, but for me, 39 grains of 3031 averaged only 2010.
I have only done preliminary testing with LVR, but it looks like the easiest way to get good velocity with low pressure.
Bruce

 

[Ganderite]

One thing to keep in mind with respect OAL in tube magazine ammo is that if the round is too long it won't feed out of the mag.

When you make ammo for a box mag, it only takes a second to load a few and look to see that there is some clearance at the tip of the bullet.

With as tube magazine, loading the ammo is not a problem. You can stuff rounds in there that are a 1/4" too long. The problem is that they won't feed and then you have to take something apart to get them out of the gun. If you discover this at the range, it might mean driving home with a loaded gun.

If you buy bullets made for your calibre (i.e 30-30 or 35 Rem) the cannelure is at the correct place for an OAL that will function.

 

[Sqr]

COAL stands for Cartridge Overall Length. It has zip to do with the length of the case itself. Case length is case length.

Go look up the definition of Headspace. It has ZERO to do with COAL.

You also do not understand what the freebore is. The case would need to be prob .200" or more over length in order to extend past the freebore, which is simply impossible.

You can have a long free bore, wide free bore or a "zero" free bore in a particular chamber so Case length does matter. Also head spacing can change with cartridge over all length.

 

[Suputin]

You can have a long free bore, wide free bore or a "zero" free bore in a particular chamber so Case length does matter. Also head spacing can change with cartridge over all length.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. On both accounts.

Freebore is the length of the angle into the lands. The case never gets anywhere near the lands. Freebore only concerns the bullet seated length.

Headspace is the distance from the case head to the middle of the shoulder. It has nothing to do with the neck length or the case length. Headspace never changes and is fixed by SAAMI spec.

Until you understand these terms you should NOT reload ammo cause you are at risk of blowing yourself up.

 

[jaguar]

Suputin should check & head own advice.
What he describes as "freebore" sounds more like "leade".
Refer to definitions for Throat, Freebore, and Leade (Note that some internet sites confuse these terms ... use established & qualified references )
Ensure cases are not over max length. They may chamber alright but being tight into throat area may restrict crimp from releasing bullet and pressure goes up... boom. Lee has a good summary on this.
Cheers

 

[bigbull]

Suputin should check & head own advice.
What he describes as "freebore" sounds more like "leade".
Refer to definitions for Throat, Freebore, and Leade (Note that some internet sites confuse these terms ... use established & qualified references )
Ensure cases are not over max length. They may chamber alright but being tight into throat area may restrict crimp from releasing bullet and pressure goes up... boom. Lee has a good summary on this.
Cheers

I have to say that I have never confused throat, freebore and leade and if I was on a site that promoted these as similar I would not trust them on any handloading issue or go back there.
There is some confusion with the terminology but that is why people come here, we should leave more knowledgeable than when we first came.
Most reloading manuals have excellent reloading information and people should spend more time reading these sections, unfortunetly we are living in times where we take Google information as truth without prior experience or knowledge. This is a great sport and very gratifying when using your own handloads to harvest your food but an open mind is required when it comes to issues of safety.
Jumping into handloading at first alone is very unnerving. I have friends that spend many hours at the bench with me before attempting a single reload on their own some even videotaped the reloading procedure for later review, today they are confident and share their knowledge happily.
Like alot of activities that do not come naturally to us practice and the rules of engagement are to be adhered to.
Handloading is a very methodical activity.
bb

 

[Sqr]

Suputin should check & head own advice.
What he describes as "freebore" sounds more like "leade".
Refer to definitions for Throat, Freebore, and Leade (Note that some internet sites confuse these terms ... use established & qualified references )
Ensure cases are not over max length. They may chamber alright but being tight into throat area may restrict crimp from releasing bullet and pressure goes up... boom. Lee has a good summary on this.
Cheers

Don't want a confrontation but, Yup.

 

[H4831]

Suputin should check & head own advice.
What he describes as "freebore" sounds more like "leade".
Refer to definitions for Throat, Freebore, and Leade (Note that some internet sites confuse these terms ... use established & qualified references )
Ensure cases are not over max length. They may chamber alright but being tight into throat area may restrict crimp from releasing bullet and pressure goes up... boom. Lee has a good summary on this.
Cheers

COAL has absolutely nothing to do with head space!

 

[Suputin]

Suputin should check & head own advice.
What he describes as "freebore" sounds more like "leade".
Refer to definitions for Throat, Freebore, and Leade (Note that some internet sites confuse these terms ... use established & qualified references )
Ensure cases are not over max length. They may chamber alright but being tight into throat area may restrict crimp from releasing bullet and pressure goes up... boom. Lee has a good summary on this.
Cheers

Ok, so I was incorrect with my definition of freebore but that doesn't change the fact that all the stuff in front of the chamber, the freebore, and throat/leade have no bearing on the case length and that headspace is fixed and is unaffected by case length.

 

[donb]

Hi Don, regarding the 35 Remington, I had some old CIL factory loaded rounds, with 200 grain bullets, that were at least fifty years old. So I chronographed them and seven of the old rounds averaged 2054 fps. To me, that means the 35 Remington was designed to run over 2,000 fps, with 200 grain bullets.
Hodgdon on line show a lot of powders that will get more velocity than that, according to them, but in the case of 3031, 200 grain round nose, they show 37.5 grains as getting 2110, but for me, 39 grains of 3031 averaged only 2010.
I have only done preliminary testing with LVR, but it looks like the easiest way to get good velocity with low pressure.
Bruce

Thanks Bruce for your insight on this. I am going by my Lyman book which states that micro groove barrels like 1600 fps or less "for accuracy". I am a new loader, not very interested in long range accuracy. Just want to get a nice, shoulder friendly, load for 0-125 yards in the bush, with enough swat for whitetails. db

 

[donb]

One thing to keep in mind with respect OAL in tube magazine ammo is that if the round is too long it won't feed out of the mag.

When you make ammo for a box mag, it only takes a second to load a few and look to see that there is some clearance at the tip of the bullet.

With as tube magazine, loading the ammo is not a problem. You can stuff rounds in there that are a 1/4" too long. The problem is that they won't feed and then you have to take something apart to get them out of the gun. If you discover this at the range, it might mean driving home with a loaded gun.

If you buy bullets made for your calibre (i.e 30-30 or 35 Rem) the cannelure is at the correct place for an OAL that will function.

I appreciate your input on this! I am a new loader, so bear with me. I did have the overall length that was called for, but was still short of the cannelure. I had read lots of stuff about "jump to the lands" and was wanting to consider that in my reloading. As well I noted that the max load would be compressed. I did not want to go fwd without some consultation. Of note: I did poke a couple out the back door (at the specified OAL and uncrimped) and they did feed and fire just fine. My takeaway is, that I will push these back and crimp in the cannelure and not sweat the "small stuff" too much. Thanks again. db

 

[Ganderite]

You can have a long free bore, wide free bore or a "zero" free bore in a particular chamber so Case length does matter. Also head spacing can change with cartridge over all length.

This makes no sense. Case length in a 9mm or 45 ACP is related to head space. But the Cartridge OAL has nothing to do with headspace.