Weird Grouping?

M

mareshow

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So a friend and I were shooting on saturday and I pulled out my Remington 300 win mag for the first time and started shooting. At 200 yards it would group three shots nicely together, then one shot five inches away then another 8 inches away. Then group three nicely again. The stock does touch the barrel so I'm going to grind it down a bit so it doesnt. Its a Minox ZX 5 5-25x56mm scope on it. Its mounted on a weaver rail, with everything being torqued to spec.

My friend suggested that he had a similar problem with another rifle (a tikka) where the screws that mounted the action to the stock were loose and once tightened corrected the issue. Does anyone have any idea?

Also action is very smooth but when actually loaded it is difficult to close (you have to push sometimes) it fires and there is no marks on the brass, any ideas? this is with factory ammo btw
 
mareshow said:
So a friend and I were shooting on saturday and I pulled out my Remington 300 win mag for the first time and started shooting. At 200 yards it would group three shots nicely together, then one shot five inches away then another 8 inches away. Then group three nicely again. The stock does touch the barrel so I'm going to grind it down a bit so it doesnt. Its a Minox ZX 5 5-25x56mm scope on it. Its mounted on a weaver rail, with everything being torqued to spec.

My friend suggested that he had a similar problem with another rifle (a tikka) where the screws that mounted the action to the stock were loose and once tightened corrected the issue. Does anyone have any idea?

Also action is very smooth but when actually loaded it is difficult to close (you have to push sometimes) it fires and there is no marks on the brass, any ideas? this is with factory ammo btw
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I would check the scope in the rings to be sure it is not moving. Heavy recoil with a heavy scope can make it hard for the rings to hold the scope in place, especially if the rings were not fitted to the scope. But you are saying it throws flyers and then groups again. That does not point to the scope. Scope moving would cause a change that should not reverse.

You say the stock is contacting the barrel. Have you taken the action out of the stock to see if there are any issues preventing the action from fitting well into the stock? Seems unusual for a new gun to have the stock contacting the barrel. Usually there is a significant gap on a free floated barrel.

A factory cartridge should fit well in the chamber, and not require any significant force to close the bolt. Chamber a few rounds without firing them, and then check the cases to see where it is contacting. And check the bullet to see if it is going into the rifling. Taking these issues together, if this is a new gun, I think I would be sending it back to Remington, or getting it replaced.
 
Ron AKA said:
I would check the scope in the rings to be sure it is not moving. Heavy recoil with a heavy scope can make it hard for the rings to hold the scope in place, especially if the rings were not fitted to the scope. But you are saying it throws flyers and then groups again. That does not point to the scope. Scope moving would cause a change that should not reverse.

You say the stock is contacting the barrel. Have you taken the action out of the stock to see if there are any issues preventing the action from fitting well into the stock? Seems unusual for a new gun to have the stock contacting the barrel. Usually there is a significant gap on a free floated barrel.

A factory cartridge should fit well in the chamber, and not require any significant force to close the bolt. Chamber a few rounds without firing them, and then check the cases to see where it is contacting. And check the bullet to see if it is going into the rifling. Taking these issues together, if this is a new gun, I think I would be sending it back to Remington, or getting it replaced.
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Brand New gun, I'm a little disappointed. I tightened the rings a little over spec just because its a magnum cartridge. I'm going to talk to remington and see what they say.
 
What's your barrel contour and how fast were you shooting? How long between groups? If the first 3 rounds of a group are nice and tight but then it opens up further into the string, it could be caused by a lighter contour barrel heating up and stringing shots? Are the "flyers" stringing vertically or are they just randomly dispersed? Also, if as you say, the stock can contact the barrel and you're shooting off a bipod, if your amount of load on the bipod isn't consistent, that could throw rounds, though I don't think as far as you're experiencing. Are you shooting off a bipod or bags? What kind of stock is it? The factory "tupperware" plastic stock?
 
I've found that once all fasteners, action scope rings, rail etc are torqued to spec then its a good idea after ,lets say after 10 rounds, to check all torque values.

They will be correct or maybe not, just a step in trouble shooting a problem.
 
rugbydave said:
What's your barrel contour and how fast were you shooting? How long between groups? If the first 3 rounds of a group are nice and tight but then it opens up further into the string, it could be caused by a lighter contour barrel heating up and stringing shots? Are the "flyers" stringing vertically or are they just randomly dispersed? Also, if as you say, the stock can contact the barrel and you're shooting off a bipod, if your amount of load on the bipod isn't consistent, that could throw rounds, though I don't think as far as you're experiencing. Are you shooting off a bipod or bags? What kind of stock is it? The factory "tupperware" plastic stock?
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Being a Remington, especially one of recent manufacture, the heat induced stringing has a lot to do with the 'squareness of the action to the recoil lug on one side and the 'squareness of the barrel to the recoil lug on the other.

So, if you have a less than square action, less than flat recoil lug combined with the distortion of the threaded barrel which may or may not be square , will definitely induce stringing due to heat.
 
You said it was a brand new gun - what kind of barrel break-in procedure are you using?

I would also check action screws and scope rings to make sure nothing has come loose, but new barrels need some rounds through them before they stabilize...
 
rugbydave said:
What's your barrel contour and how fast were you shooting? How long between groups? If the first 3 rounds of a group are nice and tight but then it opens up further into the string, it could be caused by a lighter contour barrel heating up and stringing shots? Are the "flyers" stringing vertically or are they just randomly dispersed? Also, if as you say, the stock can contact the barrel and you're shooting off a bipod, if your amount of load on the bipod isn't consistent, that could throw rounds, though I don't think as far as you're experiencing. Are you shooting off a bipod or bags? What kind of stock is it? The factory "tupperware" plastic stock?
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Shots were slow, about 1 every 1.5 to 2 min outside temp was about 10 degrees with some wind so it was cooling quite nicely, the stock is the factory one. Shooting off bags I was shooting off a single bag in the front, my friend was shooting off a rifle bag set as far back as he could get it. The shots were stringing on the right, first one about 5 inch away second one about 8-10 " from first impacts. I'll post a pic of the target tonight when I get a chance. His shots were 2" high and to the right, mine were 5" low and to the right. We initially thought it might be stock contact but after he shot off his bags I doubt it.

BCBRAD said:
I've found that once all fasteners, action scope rings, rail etc are torqued to spec then its a good idea after ,lets say after 10 rounds, to check all torque values.

They will be correct or maybe not, just a step in trouble shooting a problem.
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I'll retorque them and try again

BCBRAD said:
Being a Remington, especially one of recent manufacture, the heat induced stringing has a lot to do with the 'squareness of the action to the recoil lug on one side and the 'squareness of the barrel to the recoil lug on the other.

So, if you have a less than square action, less than flat recoil lug combined with the distortion of the threaded barrel which may or may not be square , will definitely induce stringing due to heat.
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this makes sense and might be this.... is there a way to measure it or correct it?

FirearmsEnthusiast said:
You said it was a brand new gun - what kind of barrel break-in procedure are you using?

I would also check action screws and scope rings to make sure nothing has come loose, but new barrels need some rounds through them before they stabilize...
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I am not as thorough with barrel break in as some but I still have a bit of a procedure. I shoot about ten rounds, clean, then another ten rounds and clean. so on and so forth. I never let a new barrel get extremely warm to the touch and usually keep the barrel temp as consistent as possible.

We were noticing some irregularities with my buddies new 270 wsm, but we're talking an inch or two, not ten.
 
Sounds like heat causing the barrel or action to stress as in binding somewhere with increased heat or the barrel is moving into the stock along the barrel channel as far as throwing a round or two. Or maybe the recoil lug isn't true or is loose fiting in the stock.

I can't imagine a round jamming the rifling in a Remington causing it to cycle hard. Although being a new gun headspace could be off or bolt lug/recess off spec.

I personally never do a formal "barrel break in," I just shoot a minimum of about 60 rounds thru without getting the barrel hot. After that I set the zero and enjoy until the grouping indicates it needs cleaning.
 
Quote Originally Posted by BCBRAD View Post
Being a Remington, especially one of recent manufacture, the heat induced stringing has a lot to do with the 'squareness of the action to the recoil lug on one side and the 'squareness of the barrel to the recoil lug on the other.

So, if you have a less than square action, less than flat recoil lug combined with the distortion of the threaded barrel which may or may not be square , will definitely induce stringing due to heat.
this makes sense and might be this.... is there a way to measure it or correct it?


If that is the case then the action must be trued, the recoil lug ground flat and ensure the barrel mates with the recoil lug squarely. This takes a gunsmith and probably a new recoil lug that is guaranteed flat.

I think the higher priced models such as the Sendaro have better QC and tolerances as attested by their ability to group.

I have had many Rem 700's over the years , some where good shooters some were not.

In the general price range I find Tikka to be accurate and in the long run less expensive than the current 700's.
 
Id say you have a few things to consider before I'd run to the gunsmith, 1st is barrel contact - get this seen to right away, 2nd would be heat in the barrel - give it more time to cool down like 5 mins between shots with the bolt open and 3rd factory ammo does have lots of variances and can cause issues and 4th check all your torque specs on everything. Then go try again and see what happens.
 
Quick easy thing to try.

1. Back off the action screws so that the stock can easily be moved separate from the action.
2. Set butt of rifle on your bench or floor.
3. Hold rifle upright by the barrel without touching the stock.
4. Pull straight down on the barrel forcing the recoil lug tight against the stock.
5. Hold pressure downwards while tightening action screws.
6. Torque action screws down to 65in/lbs.

Try testing the rifle again. If grouping problem persists, you likely have an action that needs work. My SPS-T action was very out of square when purchased.
 
Emailed Gravel Agency, they said its either the chamber is incorrectly machined, or the bolt head is incorrect. Either way its warranty so by by gun :( hopefully I get it back soon
 
Shooter ----/ said:
Quick easy thing to try.

1. Back off the action screws so that the stock can easily be moved separate from the action.
2. Set butt of rifle on your bench or floor.
3. Hold rifle upright by the barrel without touching the stock.
4. Pull straight down on the barrel forcing the recoil lug tight against the stock.
5. Hold pressure downwards while tightening action screws.
6. Torque action screws down to 65in/lbs.

Try testing the rifle again. If grouping problem persists, you likely have an action that needs work. My SPS-T action was very out of square when purchased.
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Yeah I'm almost positive my action needs help... oh well warranty work it is...

Barnard308 said:
Id say you have a few things to consider before I'd run to the gunsmith, 1st is barrel contact - get this seen to right away, 2nd would be heat in the barrel - give it more time to cool down like 5 mins between shots with the bolt open and 3rd factory ammo does have lots of variances and can cause issues and 4th check all your torque specs on everything. Then go try again and see what happens.
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Barrel contact is definitely an option but they are going to warranty it so might was well get it fixed before i start to tinker with it.
 
Ron AKA said:
I would agree. Better still, ask for a replacement.
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Now there's an idea, Once I send it down I will definitely ask, I mean I've only fired maybe 25 rds through it so I'm a little disappointed to say the least.

One thing that makes me thing its not the stock contacting the barrel is wouldnt that basically move the point of impact up and not erratically to the side?
 
mareshow said:
Now there's an idea, Once I send it down I will definitely ask, I mean I've only fired maybe 25 rds through it so I'm a little disappointed to say the least. One thing that makes me thing its not the stock contacting the barrel is wouldnt that basically move the point of impact up and not erratically to the side?
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'

I think there is something wrong in the action to stock fit, but that is just a guess. The tips Shooter gave you would be the correct first thing to do, if you want to do some basic checks yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if there is something under the recoil lug, or something jamming it sideways, or an improperly recessed stock for the action. Kind of comes down to, do you want to touch it, or just leave it to them.
 
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