Does one ever need to use the safety in IPSC prod division?

cereal83

cereal83

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Hey,

Just wondering if you ever have to engage the safety when shooting in IPSC production division? I know first shot is always in DA mode unless your starting without one in chamber but do I ever need to engage the safety? If starting with pistol loaded on a table, going prone etc?

In my BB course, I didn't pay attention to these details as I shoot a Glock but I think I can remember the BB instructor saying when going prone that they safety should be on until your down on the ground however that could have been for the SA only guys.


Just want to be 100% sure ... Thanks
 
Last edited:
Lowering the hammer with a decocker or using your thumb, then first shot double action, is mandatory in production
IF your pistol is capable of double action.

It's not possible to activate a safety on a pistol if the hammer or striker isn't cocked.
 
Onagoth said:
No... In production you're never required to use the safety
Click to expand...

I figured but wanted to be sure of this. Thanks for the clarification

Rust said:
Lowering the hammer with a decocker or using your thumb, then first shot double action, is mandatory in production
IF your pistol is capable of double action.

It's not possible to activate a safety on a pistol if the hammer or striker isn't cocked.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
Just keep in mind that if for some reason you holster a pistol hammer cocked without the safety on, it's a dq. This is really only an issue during the load and make ready part
 
Or if you reholster during the course of fire,
Or if for any reason you need to put the gun down during the course of fire, while staying within reach of it (forget the exact measurement per the rule book)
There are a few situations that could require you to engage the safety with your production gun.
 
Pauls .. some of those are examples of why I was asking. I have not been to an ipsc match where I had to leave the weapon during the COF however it's something I will note. Thanks
 
Rust said:
Lowering the hammer with a decocker or using your thumb, then first shot double action, is mandatory in production
IF your pistol is capable of double action.

It's not possible to activate a safety on a pistol if the hammer or striker isn't cocked.
Click to expand...

No true. The safety on a Beretta 92 may be engaged with the hammer down, same goes for a USP of specific variants.
 
cereal83 said:
Pauls .. some of those are examples of why I was asking. I have not been to an ipsc match where I had to leave the weapon during the COF however it's something I will note. Thanks
Click to expand...

In theory those scenarios are possible, in practice they almost never come up.... Even when reholstering during a COF, which some will do from time to time, they just keep their gun hand on the pistol.

Many production guns have slim safeties these days, which aren't exactly easy to manipulate.
 
Onagoth said:
In theory those scenarios are possible, in practice they almost never come up.... Even when reholstering during a COF, which some will do from time to time, they just keep their gun hand on the pistol.

Many production guns have slim safeties these days, which aren't exactly easy to manipulate.
Click to expand...

Even many more production guns have no safeties at all.

But examples pauls brought up aren't theoretical at all. Though most of the time they are apply to a less athletic competitors. From the real match experiences:

Example: stage required to climb a ladder or move trough a shaking bridge (competitor want to use both hands to stay stable on the bridge)
---
8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the Start Signal. However, a
competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a
ready condition stated in Section 8.1. Violations will be subject to disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11).
---

Example: an elderly person or someone who has back or knees issues having a hard time to get up after kneeling or prone stage. Put gun on the ground, gets up with the help of RO and let RO to pick the gun up for him.
---
10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note
that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on
the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:
10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and
securely on the ground or another stable object; and
10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter of the firearm at all times (except where the firearm is
placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Officer, in order to comply with a
start position); and
10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur; and
10.5.3.4 The firearm is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1; or
10.5.3.5 The firearm is unloaded and the action is open.
---
 
euxx said:
Even many more production guns have no safeties at all.

But examples pauls brought up aren't theoretical at all. Though most of the time they are apply to a less athletic competitors. From the real match experiences:

Example: stage required to climb a ladder or move trough a shaking bridge (competitor want to use both hands to stay stable on the bridge)
---
8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the Start Signal. However, a
competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a
ready condition stated in Section 8.1. Violations will be subject to disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11).
---

Example: an elderly person or someone who has back or knees issues having a hard time to get up after kneeling or prone stage. Put gun on the ground, gets up with the help of RO and let RO to pick the gun up for him.
---
10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note
that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on
the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:
10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and
securely on the ground or another stable object; and
10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter of the firearm at all times (except where the firearm is
placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Officer, in order to comply with a
start position); and
10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur; and
10.5.3.4 The firearm is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1; or
10.5.3.5 The firearm is unloaded and the action is open.
---
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any production guns that have no safeties at all.

But yes, those two examples, particularly the elderly shooter (or mobility impaired shooter) is when it does come up. I almost never see it and I would venture a guess that it's far less common at L1 or L2 matches. It could apply to the OP, so it's useful to know, but I would stand by my previous comments that it's not at all common.

I've shot IPSC since 2010 I think, never had to apply a safety myself, except when I shoot standard
 
Onagoth said:
I'm not aware of any production guns that have no safeties at all.
Click to expand...

Safeties that has to be explicitly manipulated to be set on (i.e. not grip and not trigger safeties).

Onagoth said:
But yes, those two examples, particularly the elderly shooter (or mobility impaired shooter) is when it does come up. I almost never see it and I would venture a guess that it's far less common at L1 or L2 matches. It could apply to the OP, so it's useful to know, but I would stand by my previous comments that it's not at all common.

I've shot IPSC since 2010 I think, never had to apply a safety myself, except when I shoot standard
Click to expand...

I can think of a stage that will require shooter to use both hands to do something - open a port or door, or activate moving target, or retrieve magazines from somewhere in the middle of the stage. Though most of the stages we see in Ontario are quite boring and not creative at all.

PS: On a side note, that would be also a popular DQ trap for most competitors
 
Onagoth said:
I'm not aware of any production guns that have no safeties at all.

But yes, those two examples, particularly the elderly shooter (or mobility impaired shooter) is when it does come up. I almost never see it and I would venture a guess that it's far less common at L1 or L2 matches. It could apply to the OP, so it's useful to know, but I would stand by my previous comments that it's not at all common.

I've shot IPSC since 2010 I think, never had to apply a safety myself, except when I shoot standard
Click to expand...

My Sig P226 has a decocker only and no external safety.

lonedrone
 
I am just asking as I want to use a CZ for my next match. I didn't want to do something wrong and get a DQ. No need to start an argument that lasts a few days.

I can tell you on the CZ, the safety cannot be engaged unless the hammer is cocked. Thanks for going into details for me.
 
For a gun with external hammer and safety. After chambering round on a LAMR command, drop the hammer right after you chambered that round. Then you can holster your gun and get both hands free to top up the first magazine before reinserting it back.

In a last few months I've seen a few shooters dqed for leaving hammer cocked and no safety applied when holstering gun on LAMR...
 
cereal83 said:
I am just asking as I want to use a CZ for my next match. I didn't want to do something wrong and get a DQ. No need to start an argument that lasts a few days.

I can tell you on the CZ, the safety cannot be engaged unless the hammer is cocked. Thanks for going into details for me.
Click to expand...

No one here is arguing...your original question was asked and answered.... Surely you don't have a problem with people discussing other things?
 
cereal83 said:
Hey, Just wondering if you ever have to engage the safety when shooting in IPSC production division? I know first shot is always in DA mode unless your starting without one in chamber but do I ever need to engage the safety? If starting with pistol loaded on a table, going prone etc? In my BB course, I didn't pay attention to these details as I shoot a Glock but I think I can remember the BB instructor saying when going prone that they safety should be on until your down on the ground however that could have been for the SA only guys. Just want to be 100% sure ... Thanks
Click to expand...

8.5.1 - Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the external safety should be applied. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:
8.5.1.1 - Taking more than one step in any direction.
8.5.1.2 - Changing shooting position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.).

<http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf>


10.5 - Disqualification –Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:
10.5.11 - Having a loaded and holstered handgun, in any of the following conditions:
10.5.11.1 - A single action self-loading pistol with the chamber loaded and the safety not applied.
10.5.11.2 - A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.
10.5.11.3 - A revolver with the hammer cocked.

<http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf>
 
Wendell said:
8.5.1 - Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the external safety should be applied. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:


<
Click to expand...


Mr Cereal
Please note what I put in bold
There is a big difference between "should" and "must"

"Must" implies a required action.
"Should" is more of a suggested best practice, but ultimately up to the competitor.
 
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