6.5 Creedmor or 6.5 Lapua?

I bought into the hype and built a 6x47 Lapua a few years ago and had a heck of a problem with hang fires and velocity variations in cold January weather. 30 FPS SD was optimistic with the best load at the time.

After about 300 rounds trying to develop a load that produced consistent velocities I eventually gave up and migrated to large primer brass by resizing 6XC cases. The large primer brass solved the velocity issue to pretty much 1FPS SD.

I had several conversations with David Tubbs at the time about the primers and he discussed it with Obermyer. They came to the conclusion that the experience I had was typical of their own experience in cold weather.

Bottom line is that they went with the large primer on the 6XC brass for this very reason, so to this point I would prefer the 6.5 Creedmoor for the same reason. The large primer in 6.5 Creed will fire off consistent velocities in the cold weather, but I would not be so confident with the small primer of the 6.5x47 in the cold.
 
Honestly I went through this exact same predicament this past year. I have settled on the 6.5 Creedmoor even though I reload my own ammo it is nice to be able to buy factory ammo occasionally. Also, if you buy factory ammo, you can shoot it, and then have fireformed brass to reload.

Being that my gun will be somewhat of a hybrid target rifle that I'll take coyote/deer hunting, I wanted it shorter as well. I decided I'm going with a 23" barrel but haven't decided on Manufacturer yet. I'd love to go with a Proof Carbon barrel but they are really spendy... Other than that, I have just been saving up money before I make a trip to Lloydminster to talk to the guys at Insite.
 
BadAsMo said:
I bought into the hype and built a 6x47 Lapua a few years ago and had a heck of a problem with hang fires and velocity variations in cold January weather. 30 FPS SD was optimistic with the best load at the time.

After about 300 rounds trying to develop a load that produced consistent velocities I eventually gave up and migrated to large primer brass by resizing 6XC cases. The large primer brass solved the velocity issue to pretty much 1FPS SD.

I had several conversations with David Tubbs at the time about the primers and he discussed it with Obermyer. They came to the conclusion that the experience I had was typical of their own experience in cold weather.

Bottom line is that they went with the large primer on the 6XC brass for this very reason, so to this point I would prefer the 6.5 Creedmoor for the same reason. The large primer in 6.5 Creed will fire off consistent velocities in the cold weather, but I would not be so confident with the small primer of the 6.5x47 in the cold.
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That's really interesting. Did you try a bunch of different primers (I'm assuming you did)? I had never thought that you would get less consistent ignition from small primers in cold weather. Is that phenomenon limited to small primers used with cases with a case capacity normally reserved for large primers (i.e. 6x47, 6.5x47) and not an occurrence in smaller cases (.223 etc)? It's sometimes almost maddening how many variables there are to simply picking a cartridge, haha
 
I was worried about the small primer initially. Then I came across German Salazar's primer test.
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

No issue at all when you use SR magnum primers. You can see that SR primers like the Rem 7.5 produce a far bigger spark than popular std. LR primers like the 210M and the BR2. CCI 450 also worked fine over the winter. I shot my 6x47L all winter long and had SDs in the singles. It was cold enough to cause the Jewel trigger in my 223 trainer to malfunction when the rifle got cold. On my 5th 6x47L barrel now. I'm a fan. Would go with the 6.5x47 if I was going to switch to 6.5mm. The brass is the best I have ever used.
 
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Brianma65 said:
I've been reading guys getting 3000 + out of a 26.
i should be in at,around 2700 to 2800 , out of a 20 barrel.
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The best I see in the Lapua load data for 140 grain is 2744 fps out of a 27 1/2" barrel for the 6.5x47, and 2759 fps for the 6.5 CM with a 25 1/2". Lighter bullets, perhaps like the 123 Scenar might approach 3000 out of a 28". I guess it depends on how much overpressure you want to go...
 
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Ron AKA said:
The best I see in the Lapua load data for 140 grain is 2744 fps out of a 27 1/2" barrel for the 6.5x47, and 2759 fps for the 6.5 CM with a 25 1/2". Lighter bullets, perhaps like the 123 Scenar might approach 3000 out of a 28". I guess it depends on how much overpressure you want to go...
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Just looking at a couple of forums, here's a pic , of one guys data.
 

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rugbydave said:
That's really interesting. Did you try a bunch of different primers (I'm assuming you did)? I had never thought that you would get less consistent ignition from small primers in cold weather. Is that phenomenon limited to small primers used with cases with a case capacity normally reserved for large primers (i.e. 6x47, 6.5x47) and not an occurrence in smaller cases (.223 etc)? It's sometimes almost maddening how many variables there are to simply picking a cartridge, haha
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Ignition in the cold is a well known problem.. it can affect any and all cartridges. Just a combo of spark vs type and quantity of powder vs ambient temps. The problem is vastly smaller in the heat of summer but it can still occur with big charges of compressed powder and a low energy primer.

The 223 can be vulnerable in the cold if using ball type powders.

For me, running super high pressures (well above magnum pressures) is more a negative then any possible velocity gains that might occur. Super strong brass is nice and let's me shoot longer with the same brass but I wouldn't "need" to run super strong brass so the brass would survive my load pressures.

At equal pressures, the more fuel, the higher the speed of the bullet. Accuracy with all of these mid sized cartridges is excellent and there are many combos to make any of these work.

The 6.5 has taken off in popularity so components, dies and bullets are all readily available and more are on their way next year.

Jerry
 
rugbydave said:
That's really interesting. Did you try a bunch of different primers (I'm assuming you did)? I had never thought that you would get less consistent ignition from small primers in cold weather. Is that phenomenon limited to small primers used with cases with a case capacity normally reserved for large primers (i.e. 6x47, 6.5x47) and not an occurrence in smaller cases (.223 etc)? It's sometimes almost maddening how many variables there are to simply picking a cartridge, haha
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You bet I tried all kinds of primers and powders.

Back to the conversation with Tubbs, (I spoke with Salazar too down at Camp Perry when I was shooting the 6x47 and he was going through the same testing) the small primer is fine when cooking 25-30 grains of powder, but once you get up to about 38 grains and the burn rate gets slower, the small primers are just not hot enough in cold conditions.

There are fans of the small primer thing even in 308 with 45 grains of powder in the summer time, but I'm sure they'd curb that enthusiasm in freezing weather once they run it over the chronograph.
 
Brianma65 said:
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Just looking at a couple of forums, here's a pic , of one guys data.
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Just a heads up, that I shoot a Pierce receiver and their primary and secondary extraction is superb and very strong. I have gotten some "special" performance in my 308's with nary a "pressure" sign. Way hot and still a 1 finger flick out of the receiver. Bolt lift in a properly set up modern custom action is going to mask pressures way beyond 65K psi.

A proper chronograph is your friend... if you are exceeding published velocities by a significant margin, odds are pressures are too.

Note the big jump in velocity at 43gr.. a sure sign pressures have spiked. Up until then, each gr was around 30 to 40 fps. I bet this load becomes very irratic from day to day.

See around the 40gr node... velocity stabilises with smaller changes per unit powder. I bet if this shooter goes back and reviews his groups at longer distance, this is where the best accuracy also was.

A 6.5X47L with a 140gr VLD is going to hit max normal operating pressures around 2700 fps... going to 2800fps is already a pretty toasty load... heading further to 3000fps puts this set up in dangerous pressures.... pressures signs or not.

Put this set up under a strain gauge THEN tell me if there are pressure signs or not.

Just because the brass doesn't disintegrate, doesn't mean PSI's are not up there.

Jerry
 
I've heard of guys stretching their custom actions with over pressure loads with small primers and having to replace them.

x2 on the strain gage test.

It's a bit like driving a sports car. It pulls a lot of Gs in the turn and its real fun, until it lets go and then its all over in an instant, cause when it lets go, its just gone and there's no saving it.

The high pressure thing with small primers=Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.
 
I am sure some guys do run over pressure. RBROS who built mine assured me I was not over pressure with the load they developed for me. I tend to believe Travis as he has fired between 65,000-70,000 rounds of 6.5X47 personally and in competition.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Just because the brass doesn't disintegrate, doesn't mean PSI's are not up there.

Jerry
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Absolutely true. While exploring a high node during load development, I was shocked to see my one 175 SMK load reading 2900 fps (.308 26" barrel). No pressure signs whatsoever, no swipe, no hard bolt lift nothing. I pulled them down and went back to the lower node.
 
This survey of the top 100 shooters in the US in 2015 found that in the 6.5 bore the 6.5x47 Lapua came out ahead, while the 6.5 Creedmoor was second. But the 6mm bore was more popular than the 6.5 and in 6mm the Creedmoor was first and Lapua second. In 6.5 mm average muzzle velocity for the Lapua was 2765, and the Creedmoor 2817. Maximums were well under 3000.
 
Jerry the load I use is: 42.2 gr of H4350, CCI 450, Lapua brass and a 130 Berger hunting. I only have about 200 rounds through my rifle so far. Travis says that the Broughton barrels do pick up speed around 150-200 rounds. Last time I Chronographed it was 2980+ fps. Travis says they usually settle in right at 3000 fps. This is out of a 26" Broughton with a 4 port Defensive Edge brake. Truly a pleasure to shoot. I Think this winter I may experiment with some 140's to see how fast they are and how they will shoot. I never really plan on changing from my original load; it just shoots so good!
 
beeman2 said:
Jerry the load I use is: 42.2 gr of H4350, CCI 450, Lapua brass and a 130 Berger hunting. I only have about 200 rounds through my rifle so far. Travis says that the Broughton barrels do pick up speed around 150-200 rounds. Last time I Chronographed it was 2980+ fps. Travis says they usually settle in right at 3000 fps. This is out of a 26" Broughton with a 4 port Defensive Edge brake. Truly a pleasure to shoot. I Think this winter I may experiment with some 140's to see how fast they are and how they will shoot. I never really plan on changing from my original load; it just shoots so good!
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The irony with the 6.5s and PRS type shooting is most want super LR low drag heavy bullets... definitely great when distances get beyond 800yds BUT many course of fires I have seen had very little beyond 800yds as a percentage of the total rds fired.

For my 6.5 CM, I am going to test the 130gr family as you have... you will get "faster" speeds and flatter trajectories and lower recoil/torque which leads to faster recover and inside that 800yds, similar if not better ballistics.

Every case capacity has a bullet weight/speed where is it most efficient - for the small case 6.5's, 120 to 130 are ideal. Putting in a 140gr ramps up pressures much faster vs the velocity so you actually don't get the same ballistics for similar pressures.

Not saying a 6.5 L can't launch 140's with superb accuracy... it will. It just can't do this at the velocities of larger cases burning more fuel for the same pressures

approaching 3000fps with 130's IS a very hot load for the 6.5L. Closer to 2800/2900fps would be where I would choose to be.

For the 140's, around 2700fps is ideal and it will shoot superbly all the way out to 1000yds in competition.

YMMV

Jerry
 
I believe lapua is going to introduce 6.5 creedmoor brass in the new year with small primer pockets? Anyone else confirm that?

If that's true I'd be interested to hear the communities thoughts on how that relates to this 6.5x47 vs 6.5 creedmoor choice
 
Ron AKA said:
This survey of the top 100 shooters in the US in 2015 found that in the 6.5 bore the 6.5x47 Lapua came out ahead, while the 6.5 Creedmoor was second. But the 6mm bore was more popular than the 6.5 and in 6mm the Creedmoor was first and Lapua second. In 6.5 mm average muzzle velocity for the Lapua was 2765, and the Creedmoor 2817. Maximums were well under 3000.
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This is an interesting article link, but left me with the feeling that popularity of one over the other was not evidence to support superiority of either.

Furthermore, the popularity of 6.5 creed seems to only recently gained any real popularity where the 6.5x47 has been around longer or just popular longer. It would be fair to conclude that top guys may just have not migrated into the 6.5 creed yet since they are already invested in the 6.5x47.

Time will tell which comes out on top. I'm rooting for the 6.5 creed, but not the 6mm creed, that's just too hot for A 6mm. 6x47 is a great round though, probably my all time favorite with large primers.

I like to think of it is terms of bullet weight to powder capacity. Most successful long range rounds tend to run in powder about 1/3 of the heavy bullet weight.

So for the 115 grain 6mm that's about 38.3 grains of powder which is almost exactly the 6x47 load.
By this same math the 6.5 Creed takes about 1/3 of the 120 grain bullet so technically on the light side for 140s, but that's also efficient cause the powder burn rate can be faster which burns cleaner.
 
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.284 said:
I believe lapua is going to introduce 6.5 creedmoor brass in the new year with small primer pockets? Anyone else confirm that?

If that's true I'd be interested to hear the communities thoughts on how that relates to this 6.5x47 vs 6.5 creedmoor choice
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I wish that instead, they'd offer a 6x47 with large primer.
 
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