Glock 34 MOS or Walther Q5 Match?
- Thread starter okcorral1881
- Start date
Rules out the LDC at 1230g (43.4 oz).
okcorral1881
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Thanks, I knew about the size/box but never checked the weight as I never considered the S2 as a IDPA gun.............IDPA is all about concealed/carry/defensive shooting and the Shadow 2 was designed for IPSC.
okcorral1881
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East of Toronto
Just to be clear "Club" matches are official IDPA matches. Not for Competition guns are allowed in Club Matches, not in Sanctioned Matches. The Shadow2 would suck in IDPA but the shooter might do OK with it. The gun is way to heavy for the sport. Works in IPSC or at least CZ hopes it will, but for IDPA, if you really want to be competitive you go Glock 34 or M&P Pro 5" both with improved trigger group parts. For most who just want to play and have fun just about any gun will work, even the Shadow2. CZ makes the 75 Shadowline for IDPA and the gun can be a player, just hasn't caught on as much as the Glock and M&P. It may but the young guns are being weaned on polymer and that seems to be where it is at for IDPA and to a lessor extent USPSA.
Take Care
Bob
Bob, please I mean no offense, but it seems each time it has to be your message for me to reply
I do get that you love your shadowline and you oppose the "Shadow 2 HYPE" thing. But this is getting silly now.
1) The difference between 75 (no rail - 1kg) and Shadow SP01 ( rail - 1,18kg) is bigger than and SP01 and Shadow 2 ( 1,18kg vs 1,33 kg). One never would say that CZ 75 is fit for IDPA but SP01 is "too heavy".
2) If 100 grams would matter that much in IDPA, you would NEVER see steel guns over 1 kg as opposed to 700 grams polymer frames. You think that you are fine with shadowline which is 300-400 grams more weight than glocks and m&ps, but god forbid anyone would take 1.33 kg shadow 2 and "it is not fit for the sport"? Come on. "shadow 2 would suck in IDPA" is the best joke of this thread. Many could only hope it was legal for SSP.
3) There is zero disadvantage of heavier gun in IDPA. Zero. The official weight limit is in the rules to PROTECT the light guns from heavy guns, not the other way around. At any given IDPA stage, a heavy heavy handgun would be superior than a small light subcompact. In fact if one was to exploit all possibilities for improving the outcome, the ideal choice would be heaviest gun up to the 43oz that could fit the box.
4) If shadow 2 was down to legal 43oz weight (slightly shorter barrel and rail), it would be clearly superior to your beloved shadowline - better slide serrations, better checkering of the grip, better cutouts. Buts it would only be changes to the frame. It would be internally same shadowline you like to much. And shadowline "fits the sport" perfectly for you. But add better or shall I say an updated frame and "its not good for the sport". Right.
I do get that you love your shadowline and you oppose the "Shadow 2 HYPE" thing. But this is getting silly now.
1) The difference between 75 (no rail - 1kg) and Shadow SP01 ( rail - 1,18kg) is bigger than and SP01 and Shadow 2 ( 1,18kg vs 1,33 kg). One never would say that CZ 75 is fit for IDPA but SP01 is "too heavy".
2) If 100 grams would matter that much in IDPA, you would NEVER see steel guns over 1 kg as opposed to 700 grams polymer frames. You think that you are fine with shadowline which is 300-400 grams more weight than glocks and m&ps, but god forbid anyone would take 1.33 kg shadow 2 and "it is not fit for the sport"? Come on. "shadow 2 would suck in IDPA" is the best joke of this thread. Many could only hope it was legal for SSP.
3) There is zero disadvantage of heavier gun in IDPA. Zero. The official weight limit is in the rules to PROTECT the light guns from heavy guns, not the other way around. At any given IDPA stage, a heavy heavy handgun would be superior than a small light subcompact. In fact if one was to exploit all possibilities for improving the outcome, the ideal choice would be heaviest gun up to the 43oz that could fit the box.
4) If shadow 2 was down to legal 43oz weight (slightly shorter barrel and rail), it would be clearly superior to your beloved shadowline - better slide serrations, better checkering of the grip, better cutouts. Buts it would only be changes to the frame. It would be internally same shadowline you like to much. And shadowline "fits the sport" perfectly for you. But add better or shall I say an updated frame and "its not good for the sport". Right.
owlowl. No offence taken. The Shadow2 is to heavy for IDPA. It just is, the weight limit is 43 ounces and that is not going to change anytime soon. The Shadow2 weighs in at around 46 ounces.
Lighter guns do better than heavier guns in IDPA. Like it or not. Why? Well most of the folks in the US who shoot IDPA use their carry guns and not many bother carrying 43 ounce guns. The Glock 34 has ruled IDPA SSP Division long before Vogel came along. The two most popular guns shot at the US NAtionals over the past few years has been the Glock and M&P lines. I think last year there were only four CZ's. There is a reason for it. The polymer guns are winning. If IPSC dropped the five pound minimum trigger pull for Production do you think you would see more Glock 34's in the sport - if IPSC decided to let them in Production. You see lots of polymer guns in USPSA.
Of the CZ's the Shadowline is the best offering currently available out of the box, be it the SP-01 or 75 version from CZ for IDPA. If you know of a better pistol currently offered by CZ let me know. OK the P-09 may get a following.
Personally I run the M&P mainly because I shoot it better in the sport than I do my CZ's. That is just me and no reflection on the CZ pistol.
Love the CZ's and I am sure the Shadow2 will make an impact in IPSC, I doubt many who are wetting their pants to get one will shoot it any better than their current Shadow but that is a subject for another thread. It has been designed to shoot IPSC though, not IDPA.
Take care
Bob
Your comment regarding the 43 ounce limit is laughable in the extreme. You know nothing of the history of the sport. I hate to be rude but that conclusion you have reached is just nonsense. Weight is a real issue with a carry gun. Many question why the limit for IDPA is so high. Well the answer to that question is the basic 1911 weighs in at a tad under 43 ounces and that is why the weight limit is set at 43 ounces. If you have not figured out the fact the founder of the sport was Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat aka a premium 1911 maker. Up until 2015 the weight limit for two of the pistol divisions DA/SA guns compete in was 39 ounces not the present 43 ounces. Many of us argued to get the limit raised to allow the Shadow to compete. It weighed in at just shy of 41 ounces and with a little shaving here and there it was possible to get to the old 39 ounce limit.
Lighter guns do better than heavier guns in IDPA. Like it or not. Why? Well most of the folks in the US who shoot IDPA use their carry guns and not many bother carrying 43 ounce guns. The Glock 34 has ruled IDPA SSP Division long before Vogel came along. The two most popular guns shot at the US NAtionals over the past few years has been the Glock and M&P lines. I think last year there were only four CZ's. There is a reason for it. The polymer guns are winning. If IPSC dropped the five pound minimum trigger pull for Production do you think you would see more Glock 34's in the sport - if IPSC decided to let them in Production. You see lots of polymer guns in USPSA.
Of the CZ's the Shadowline is the best offering currently available out of the box, be it the SP-01 or 75 version from CZ for IDPA. If you know of a better pistol currently offered by CZ let me know. OK the P-09 may get a following.
Personally I run the M&P mainly because I shoot it better in the sport than I do my CZ's. That is just me and no reflection on the CZ pistol.
Love the CZ's and I am sure the Shadow2 will make an impact in IPSC, I doubt many who are wetting their pants to get one will shoot it any better than their current Shadow but that is a subject for another thread. It has been designed to shoot IPSC though, not IDPA.
Take care
Bob
Your comment regarding the 43 ounce limit is laughable in the extreme. You know nothing of the history of the sport. I hate to be rude but that conclusion you have reached is just nonsense. Weight is a real issue with a carry gun. Many question why the limit for IDPA is so high. Well the answer to that question is the basic 1911 weighs in at a tad under 43 ounces and that is why the weight limit is set at 43 ounces. If you have not figured out the fact the founder of the sport was Bill Wilson of Wilson Combat aka a premium 1911 maker. Up until 2015 the weight limit for two of the pistol divisions DA/SA guns compete in was 39 ounces not the present 43 ounces. Many of us argued to get the limit raised to allow the Shadow to compete. It weighed in at just shy of 41 ounces and with a little shaving here and there it was possible to get to the old 39 ounce limit.
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Phat Eagle
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- Fraser Valley, BC
The poster suggested it's because most US competitors use their daily carry guns, which generally AREN'T 1911s or bigger.
The shadow 2 would flourish in idpa if it were allowed..... In fact, if idpa raised the weight limit you'd see alot more steel guns, tanfoglio included
Heavy bull barrelled guns shoot fast and accurate with minimal recoil.... Perfect for competition
To be honest most of the folks who shoot the sport in the US do so with their carry guns and not many want to carry heavy steel guns when inexpensive polymer guns shooting the same cartridge exist. That and there are differences between IPSC and IDPA which tend to favour the lighter guns for IDPA IMHO.
I am taking out the quality of shooter in all of this incidentally. I think most can draw a lighter gun faster than a heavier gun for example. A lot of IDPA stages are designed where the shooter draws or picks up his gun and instantly must fire at targets while from my experience IPSC more often has the shooter drawing and moving to a position before engaging targets. This type of stage tends to reduce the need for a fast draw as the draw itself takes place while the shooter is moving to a spot to shoot. This might be one major reason. IDPA stages are shorter by quite a bit - maximum movement is limited to 15 yards and 18 rounds so your actual time in shooting plays more a part of your overall score vs IPSC where you have more travelling to do that eats up time and the speed in which you move has more of a bearing in IPSc on your score than it might in IDPA.
The sports are really quite different. Some prefer one over the other. Others shoot both. IDPA does not have a minimum trigger pull for the first shot. That certainly plays in favour of the polymer striker fired guns in SSP Division and to the detriment of DA/SA guns where the DA pull is heavier than that found on competition tuned striker fired pistols. The fact that the polymer guns typically also win ESP Division where steel SA guns are allowed also seems to indicate there are advantages to the lighter guns. CDP Division once ruled by the 1911 often is one now by shooters using either a Glock or M&P.
In both sports there is a bit of herd mentality involved as well. What wins on Sunday sells on Monday. Folks want to shoot what the top shooters are winning with forgetting of course it is the archer not the arrow. Bob Vogel wins SSP Division by a mile with a Glock 34 in his hand and and the Glock 34 is the most popular pistol in IDPA SSP Division. Ths Shadow wins at the World Shoot and guys go and buy Shadows. If the Beretta or Tanfoglio were to win IPSC Production regularly do you think it would affect Shadow sales....of course it would so too if someone comes along and wins SSP Division using a DA/SA guns regularly.
Take Care
Bob
I should add for most shooters buy a gun you like that fits the sport or division you want to play in and go have fun. For most it really doesn't matter what gun you bring.
Well Matt that is the issue the real heavy guns are not allowed in IDPA. Steel guns are as you know and in particular the regular Shadow that has dominated the IPSC scene for the past few years, seems like forever, was not and continues not to be a player in IDPA. Even the 85 Combat, which made weight has never been much of a factor in IDPA.
I agree heavy bull barreled guns are prefect for competition but IDPA has tried to date to be a practical defensive pistol orientated sport for guns used for self defense. You can argue how successful the owners have been at keeping it that way. Never the less, SSP Division is supposed to be for and represent practical defensive pistols. 43 ounces is certainly the upper limit IMHO of that classification in the real world. The new CCP Division, which we all cannot shoot up here due to the barrel length was a move towards what folks are really carrying in the US - read Glock 19.
I would agree with your statement except we simply have not seen any evidence that DA/SA guns have successfully competed with the striker fired guns in IDPA. Winning the US Narionals multiple times would be evidence. How do you think the Glock 34 would do against the Shadow2 in IPSC if it was allowed to compete? Vogel won in Greece with pretty much a stock Glock 17. IPSC I am sure inspected his gun thoroughly that year. :>).
Raising the weight limit is not going to happen just to allow specific Foreign made guns into the sport. Some of us had a devil of a time just to get the weight limit raised to a consistent limit. Our argument was if 43 ounces was allowed in CDP division to accommodate the FS 1911 why not for all divisions? In getting it raised the Shadow became legal without a lot of mods on the interior of the gun as did the CZ 97B for CDP Division. Neither gun has made much noise in IDPA yet.
Bull barrels are not allowed except with way shorter barreled guns as you know.
Take Care
Bob
Really? How do you know that?
Anyway. The reason "light" guns are doing better in IDPA is only because the rules are specifically made to make it happen. There is practically no way to drag in a decent "sporting" or "custom sport" all steel gun into IDPA.
1) SSP does not allow SAO. No one makes good SPORTING all steel guns like that. All steel SAO gun would dominate striker triggers (as CZ 75 SAO does by the way). But it can't compete in SSP. Stock mass produced DA/SA steel guns can't compete with plastic strikers, again, no one makes a gun to fit these rule. And no meaningful modifications are allowed in SSP.
2) You would think ESP to the rescue! SAO allowed. But it does not allow "dust covers over 3.25 inches". Ops - 99% of sporting all metal guns are out.
3) CDP is .45 ACP only + "dust cover" rule. Which was CRAFTED SPECIFICALLY to make 1911 legal, but nothing else could make it.
Plus "the box" which won't even fit ambidextrous safeties on some guns. Plus the weight limit. There are practically NO sporting guns on the market which would fit that. Does it mean that "light guns" in IDPA somehow magically are more shootable than heavy guns? Not at all. You really need to kid yourself to seriously think that. IDPA course of fire without all the "reality rules" is not a tiniest bit harder from shooting perspective than IPCS or USPSA. If anyone can shoot an IDPA stage with a glock, they could do it much better with a "race" gun. If the muzzle jump is less, the recoil is less, sights are better and trigger is shorter and crisp its a better gun for any shooter, won't you say that?
You can make an argument that CDP with "heavy" 1911 usually shows worse time than SSP. True, but it is not because "heavy" does not "fit the sport", but because in SSP 90% of guns are plastic 9mm, but in CDP "heavy" are .45 only.
PS
"Bob Vogel or whoever uses Glock and wins, so Glock is better than..." is like saying that "Jerry Miculek is very good with a revolver, so revolvers are superior". Totally pointless for most regular people and makes zero difference for them.
As I said earlier based upon the above you don't really know what you are talking about. Come back when you do. I quit correcting you because it is pointless. IDPA is not IPSC or USPSA and neither of them are IDPA. Not at all sure what all the nonsense about comparing what is allowed in one sport and not the other. The rules are different...what is your point, we all know that?
Take Care
Bob
Stop jumping the issues around. You said heavy guns don't do well in IDPA because "lighter are better". I'm telling you that its not. The rules are as such that there is no real competition for a striker gun in SSP. There is dust cover rule in ESP. CDP is .45 ACP and dust cover.
Most of Tanfoglios are not IDPA legal. SIGs and Beretta's with SA/DA which are legal can't stand against strikers without modifications. So they can't in SSP.
There is no point of taking SSP to compete in ESP. You can, but there is no point.
In the IDPA world striker guns win, not because lighter plastic is magically better suited for the IDPA targets, but because rules are limiting the choice of gear. There are no striker heavy guns on the market. And there are plenty of sporting heavy guns which are no leagal in IDPA.
Most of Tanfoglios are not IDPA legal. SIGs and Beretta's with SA/DA which are legal can't stand against strikers without modifications. So they can't in SSP.
There is no point of taking SSP to compete in ESP. You can, but there is no point.
In the IDPA world striker guns win, not because lighter plastic is magically better suited for the IDPA targets, but because rules are limiting the choice of gear. There are no striker heavy guns on the market. And there are plenty of sporting heavy guns which are no leagal in IDPA.
