.38 Special 1892 French Revolver

[Thiopento]

I came across this very interesting modified french 1892, check it out, looks like someone added a colt command .38 special barrel and shaved the cylinders to use .38 special. I'm wondering how practical it is to convert a french 1892 to .38 special, given how hard it is to find 8mm lebel! It's never good to convert a historical firearm but if this one was antique I wouldn't mind owning it to give it more range time,

 

[The Kurgan]

Very interesting conversion, how does it shoot?

 

[Thiopento]

No idea how it shoots! I'm curious about the feasibility of this, anyone know if s colt commando barrel will simply thread into the French 1892 frame ?

 

[tiriaq]

I really doubt that a Colt barrel would fit without alterations. The barrel would have to be rethreaded (metric, no doubt) and indexed.
The chambers would also have to be reamed.
The conversion would not be inexpensive.
8mm Lebel is easy to handload, using 32-20 brass.

 

[Deuce-deuce]

My first question would be how long the colt barrel is... Forget about the threads, that's easy to fix. If the barrel is shorter than 107 mm (?) it's a prohibited device.

This conversion would be expensive and I'm unsure on reaming out the cylinders.... Would it not be espasier to move the foreign pin and one to .22wmr?

 

[tiriaq]

Obviously whatever barrel was fitted would need to be long enough so that it would be over 105mm when fitted.
Altering the firing pin and breechface, sleeving the chambers and barrel and altering the extractor for .22Magnum would be even more complicated.
With either of these conversions, the front sight would have to be adjusted to zero.
Much easier to just handload 8mm.

 

[wbaad]

If it's antique it would be ok to be below 104, would it not?

 

[tiriaq]

Would be if original. Probably would be if altered. Personally, I would err on the side of caution.
And heaven only knows what the classification would be if the Tater Tot ever changes things.

 

[Deuce-deuce]

If it's antique it would be ok to be below 104, would it not?

It's my thinking that it'd be ok ON an antique gun. The issue (for me) would be that the barrel off the gun is a prescribed prohibited device. So if one was to do the conversion one would have to be in possession of a prohibited device...

 

[tiriaq]

Take a modern pistol barrel, shorten it to less than 105mm, and you have created a prohibited device.
Does it cease to be a prohibited device if it is installed on an antique pistol?
I would not want to be the one to find out.
That is why I suggest to err on the side of caution.

 

[mkrnel]

What is the difference with this or fitting or cutting a new short barrel on a antique handgun, single shot rifle or antique shotgun?

If I buy a new 5.5 inch barrel and fit onto a antique Colt SAA handgun and later have it shortened to 2.5 inches, am I breaking the law? And if I took that 2.5 inch Colt SAA barrel off the antique handgun does it now become prohibited?

If I take a old 2.5" barrel off a antique Colt SAA sheriff model does it become prohibited? especially if it fits a new Colt or if I also own a non antique Colt SAA? How do I buy a replacement 2.5" barrel if I need one for my antique Colt?

Can I shorten my antique SxS shotgun barrels to 8 inches if I want?

 

[snurge]

You're using logic.stop it.
That doesn't apply to cdn gun laws

 

[pcvando]

Interesting conversion, that's one for the books.

The original service caliber is 8mm French Ordinance. It has nothing do to with 8mm Lebel. (One is a pistol caliber, the other is a rifle round). Lebel had nothing to do with developing this particular cartridge or pistol for that matter.

That being said, Fiocci and G&S made "8mm Lebel" brass, which is in-fact "8mm French Ordnance." Fiocci still makes the original ammo too, seasonally.

Loading for the original caliber is not too difficult.

Now a true revolver firing 8mm Lebel would be one heck of a thing...

 

[Eaglelord17]

What is the difference with this or fitting or cutting a new short barrel on a antique handgun, single shot rifle or antique shotgun?

If I buy a new 5.5 inch barrel and fit onto a antique Colt SAA handgun and later have it shortened to 2.5 inches, am I breaking the law? And if I took that 2.5 inch Colt SAA barrel off the antique handgun does it now become prohibited?

Yes it is illegal to cut down a barrel below 18.5", it is also illegal to possess a pistol barrel below the 4.1" (or whatever the exact amount is).

If I take a old 2.5" barrel off a antique Colt SAA sheriff model does it become prohibited? especially if it fits a new Colt or if I also own a non antique Colt SAA? How do I buy a replacement 2.5" barrel if I need one for my antique Colt?

Short answer, barrel becomes prohibited when removed and you don't get a replacement barrel below the minimum length if it needs to be replaced (sending it into the States for a rebarrel might possibly be a work around).

Can I shorten my antique SxS shotgun barrels to 8 inches if I want?

Again falls back on the illegal to cut down a barrel below the minimum length.

Pretty simple answers, which go to show how asinine our laws are.

 

[mkrnel]

Yes it is illegal to cut down a barrel below 18.5", it is also illegal to possess a pistol barrel below the 4.1" (or whatever the exact amount is).

Short answer, barrel becomes prohibited when removed and you don't get a replacement barrel below the minimum length if it needs to be replaced (sending it into the States for a rebarrel might possibly be a work around).

Again falls back on the illegal to cut down a barrel below the minimum length.

Pretty simple answers, which go to show how asinine our laws are.

So it is illegal to cut a antique firearm barrel below 18.5?

Can you please show me were that is written in the firearm act?

I have a antique revolver with a barrel of 2.5" and it also has a RCMP antique letter!

What do you think are the legal requirements for barrel lengths of antique firearms?

I think you are confusing the regulations of restricted and prohibited firearms with Antiques which are not even firearms according to the firearm act unless used to commit a crime.

If I have a antique Colt SAA with a corroded or damaged 2.5" barrel and I want to replace it with a new 2.5" barrel from a piece of longer barrel stock does it now somehow become a prohibited firearm even with a RCMP antique status letter for a 2.5" barreled antique revolver?

And does the removed old 2.5" barrel now become prohibited even if it is from a non firearm?

Have you noticed the short barrel 17 HMR antique conversions sold on the EE here as antiques? they have new .17 short barrels fitted!

These are all antique status firearms in Canada. Some have had their original length barrels shortened at some point in time, does that now mean they are now prohibited?

 

[Eaglelord17]

So it is illegal to cut a antique firearm barrel below 18.5?
Can you please show me were that is written in the firearm act?
I have a antique revolver with a barrel of 2.5" and it also has a RCMP antique letter!
What do you think are the legal requirements for barrel lengths of antique firearms?
I think you are confusing the regulations of restricted and prohibited firearms with Antiques which are not even firearms according to the firearm act unless used to commit a crime.
If I have a antique Colt SAA with a corroded or damaged 2.5" barrel and I want to replace it with a new 2.5" barrel from a piece of longer barrel stock does it now somehow become a prohibited firearm even with a RCMP antique status letter for a 2.5" barreled antique revolver?
And does the removed old 2.5" barrel now become prohibited even if it is from a non firearm?
Have you noticed the short barrel 17 HMR antique conversions sold on the EE here as antiques? they have new .17 short barrels fitted!
These are all antique status firearms in Canada. Some have had their original length barrels shortened at some point in time, does that now mean they are now prohibited?

Sure thing, it is in the Criminal Code 84(1) "prohibited device means
(b) a handgun barrel that is equal to or less than 105 mm in length, but does not include any such handgun barrel that is prescribed, where the handgun barrel is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union"
Taking the barrel off the antique handgun turns it into a prohibited device, its pretty simple. When it is on the firearm it is part of the antique firearm, once removed it turns into a prohibited device.

I am fully aware there is antiques with short barrels, just making new barrels for them isn't allowed as again you would have made a prohibited device. Not saying it isn't done, just that I am certainly not going to try to be the case law for it. Once that barrel is off the firearm it is illegal, so take from that what you will (a prohibited device has no antique function or age restriction).

Same rule could possibly be applied to shotguns though it is much more of a grey area. "(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,"

By cutting or sawing the barrel provided it is off the shotgun you have possibly made it prohibited. If the barrel is removed from the firearm again it could be considered prohibited, though the law isn't 100% clear as they never made it definitive for antiques. Again not going to try to be the case law for that.

Personally I don't really feel like debating it, as it is stupid either way. The end result is in the best case a lengthy expensive court case, and worst case jail time. Things like those pistols listed above is the whole reason they are considering reworking the antique laws as people aren't using the law like it was intended.

 

[burnt_servo]

Take a modern pistol barrel, shorten it to less than 105mm, and you have created a prohibited device.
Does it cease to be a prohibited device if it is installed on an antique pistol?
I would not want to be the one to find out.
That is why I suggest to err on the side of caution.

is this another , it is illegal to cut a barrel down past a certain point , but it is legal to make a new barrel in a shorter length situation ?

 

[wbaad]

Sure thing, it is in the Criminal Code 84(1) "prohibited device means
(b) a handgun barrel that is equal to or less than 105 mm in length, but does not include any such handgun barrel that is prescribed, where the handgun barrel is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union"
Taking the barrel off the antique handgun turns it into a prohibited device, its pretty simple. When it is on the firearm it is part of the antique firearm, once removed it turns into a prohibited device.

I am fully aware there is antiques with short barrels, just making new barrels for them isn't allowed as again you would have made a prohibited device. Not saying it isn't done, just that I am certainly not going to try to be the case law for it. Once that barrel is off the firearm it is illegal, so take from that what you will (a prohibited device has no antique function or age restriction).

Same rule could possibly be applied to shotguns though it is much more of a grey area. "(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,"

By cutting or sawing the barrel provided it is off the shotgun you have possibly made it prohibited. If the barrel is removed from the firearm again it could be considered prohibited, though the law isn't 100% clear as they never made it definitive for antiques. Again not going to try to be the case law for that.

Personally I don't really feel like debating it, as it is stupid either way. The end result is in the best case a lengthy expensive court case, and worst case jail time. Things like those pistols listed above is the whole reason they are considering reworking the antique laws as people aren't using the law like it was intended.

Using the law as intended?

law is the law... And no barrel length restriction on antiques.

 

[mkrnel]

Sure thing, it is in the Criminal Code 84(1) "prohibited device means
(b) a handgun barrel that is equal to or less than 105 mm in length, but does not include any such handgun barrel that is prescribed, where the handgun barrel is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union"
Taking the barrel off the antique handgun turns it into a prohibited device, its pretty simple. When it is on the firearm it is part of the antique firearm, once removed it turns into a prohibited device.

I am fully aware there is antiques with short barrels, just making new barrels for them isn't allowed as again you would have made a prohibited device. Not saying it isn't done, just that I am certainly not going to try to be the case law for it. Once that barrel is off the firearm it is illegal, so take from that what you will (a prohibited device has no antique function or age restriction).

Same rule could possibly be applied to shotguns though it is much more of a grey area. "(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,"

By cutting or sawing the barrel provided it is off the shotgun you have possibly made it prohibited. If the barrel is removed from the firearm again it could be considered prohibited, though the law isn't 100% clear as they never made it definitive for antiques. Again not going to try to be the case law for that.

Personally I don't really feel like debating it, as it is stupid either way. The end result is in the best case a lengthy expensive court case, and worst case jail time. Things like those pistols listed above is the whole reason they are considering reworking the antique laws as people aren't using the law like it was intended.

Your quoting from the act regarding firearms, not non firearms like antiques. When does a barrel cease being new under the act? When was the cut-off date for having a allowed shortened barrel antique handgun?

If I remove my shortened Webley or Colt 1861 barrel for cleaning does it now become a prohibited handgun but when I put it back together it magically transforms into a antique again by your logic? You do realize they come off very easily for cleaning right? What if I choose to leave it overnight soaking too remove lead or carbon and the RCMP visit, am I now a criminal?

I wonder why the Canadian firearms act states that antiques are not firearms under the act, also there is no statement in the act that says a antique ceases to be a antique firearm by having a modified the barrel length. It does say if you re-chamber it to one of the no go calibres it does cease to be a antique but that is it. I should have asked when was the last time somebody was charged with having a shortened barrel antique firearm? maybe then it would clarify it for you.

This is what the firearm act has to say about antique handguns, notice there is no mention of barrel lengths or allowed or dis-allowed modifications to barrel lengths -

Handguns

• 6 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.
• 7 A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
  
  Before -
  
  
  
  
  
  After -
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Before -
  
  
  
  
  
  After when removed for cleaning -
  
  
  

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-464/page-1.html

 

[dingus]

mkrnel is correct theres no barrel length restrictions on antique handguns !
heres a pre 1898 handgun made in 22 and 32 Rf that does not even have a barrel at all. just a long cylinder in a frame , its made by james reed.