Starting Gunsmithing Side Job Looking For Training/Apprenticeship

tollfree01

tollfree01

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Mallorytown, ON
First time posting so bear with me.

Experienced Military/LEO and Novice recreational shooter. Taking PCDI Gunsmithing course. Looking to spend next 5-10 years working at it part time to build a reputation and client base. Hopefully it can be a viable retirement job, as a Federal worker I can't see it being worthwhile to go full-time now and give up my pension and benefits.

My question is in regards to courses (in-class/online) available in the Eastern Ontario Region. I know most manufacturers (Glock, Colt etc) run gunsmithing courses but I can't seem to find them within the Ontario region. I'm willing to travel if the course is worthwhile.

I'm also having problems finding a experienced guy to apprentice under. All the guys seem to want to keep their trade within the old boys club.

Hoping to get some feedback about the career and how to better my skillset.

Thanks in advance,

Nick
 
Quebec has a program. There was one in Alberta. My guy was military weapons tech who took a post military course in Montana. My course was off the back of a match booklet, correspondence for year. My project was a Spanish Mauser from military to sport rifle
 
tollfree01 said:
I'm also having problems finding a experienced guy to apprentice under. All the guys seem to want to keep their trade within the old boys club.



Nick
Click to expand...

My view on apprenticing is there is absolutely no incentive for the gunsmith... it would cost him money and time... something gunsmiths are normally short of.
 
I understand you but I have a few counterpoints:

1. Unlike most professional trades you cant stroll in to a community college and enroll.
2. The everyday menial, simple and mundane tasks are perfect for an apprentice. Thus freeing time for more complex (profitable) projects.
3. Most people in the firearms community would gladly apprentice for free.

The incentive for the gunsmith should be to pass on the trade and keep it alive. Telling the young guys to do what they did and spend 20+ years learning on their own is ignorant and selfish. I understand that most people don't want someone they don't know hanging around their shop but there needs to be cooperation with the new guys who want to get into the trade.
 
guntech said:
My view on apprenticing is there is absolutely no incentive for the gunsmith... it would cost him money and time... something gunsmiths are normally short of.
Click to expand...

It's a good thing the rest of the trades don't feel this way or you make have a hard time finding a mechanic, electricial, or plumber when you need one. Don't be too surprised when you are ready to retire and there is no one standing in the line to buy your business.
 
Everybody can be a "gunsmith".
The gunsmithing course would teach you how to refinish stock, metal, lots of text reading, clean up the gun stuff....so in the end they create "bubba".
To be real gunsmith you have to be General Machinist first and foremost and that might take you 5-10 years working in the real machine shop.
Be prepared to shed blood, sweat and tears....
GR8 2c worth....
 
Years ago you could get training at your local distributor without to much hassle. Now it seems as if the Paranoid Industrial Complex has clamped down on that to the point most courses are unobtainium.

That said you can try Police Ordnance, Colt Canada, Gravel, North Sylva, and the other big distributors to see if/when you could sign up for their next session. Alternately contact the factories/importers in the States and see if/when they're running their courses in house.

Cylinder & Slide in the states still offers 1911 classes. Not cheap, but, a once in a lifetime opportunity to learn from a master smith. Way back there were a few other shops that were doing courses to, Tank's, Wilson, McLearn. Shop around and you might find a few. Barney does his M14 course regularly and you can book 1 on 1's. Might not be out of the realm of possibilities to try to get one of the big banner dealers to run a promo. Buy and AR or 1911 parts kit and put it together over the weekend with a pro helping out.
 
A problem in Canada is there's no place to buy the tools from . If you want barrel vise's or receiver wrench's (basic tools ) you have to source them( or make your own) from USA usually.
PIA and expensive with our low dollar.
 
Most gunsmithing skills are not difficult. You just have to be a perfectionist and capable of using a micrometer and digital or dial gauge verniers and dial gauges. Buy yourself a lathe (not too big) and learn to use it well, learn to thread, learn to turn to tolerance of less than .001", learn to inside turn........It is not rocket science but does require patience and attention to detail.
Wood and stock work is pretty much a different trade entirely, but can be encompassed into your repertoire. It requires a more artistic nature and an eye for symmetry........I'm not real good at it, I'm better with mics and gauges.
You will find that after a while you will end up making most of the tools and jigs you need, or you'll buy them from Brownells. I made my barrel vice and made a couple action wrenches and bought a couple more from Brownells. The ability to weld using a MIG, a TIG and Oxy/Acet are huge assets.
You will find the lathe real handy, I haven't bought a trimmer pilot, or neck turning pilot in 40 years. I used to turn out a sample wildcat cartridge out of 5/8" round stock, either steel or brass before I would order the reamer, just to see what it would look like in 3D. It's good practice and you get some cool conversation pieces. I must have about 30 of them kicking around. They are very good practice to learn how to set up for taper cuts and fine work to very tight dimensional tolerances. First you draw it with all dimensions then turn it out in the lathe.
Chamber reamers you will buy, unless you are a tool and die maker, which I am not. If you can read a dial gauge and verniers and use lots of oil you can chamber barrels.
There are several good books you should buy and read......Gunsmith Kinks I and II and gobs more just look them up and order them. There is no bad information, just some is better than others. The biggest thing of all is an insatiable urge to know everything there is about guns and how they are built and function. Just start by buying all the books you can on design and repair of modern firearms (there are many) and get to know how guns really tick, why certain designs work while others don't.........I could go on for hours.........

The key to it all is to be very comfortable and knowledgeable with your lathe and a good set of files...........a mill is nice but not essential. Then you will have to decide if you want to do primarily repairs, custom metal and barrel work, custom wood work or all of the above. Your tooling will be different for each facet of the business, as will your space requirements. Will you set up for bluing, a pantograph for stock work, a milling machine for parts building, a glass bead cabinet for parts cleaning and bead blast finishing........a full service gunsmith shop does require significant space, which is why most smiths kinda specialize in what they enjoy doing the most.
I had 2 hobby gunsmith mentors and they taught me a pile. As they weren't trying to make a living at it, they had patience with me and allowed me to try pretty much anything I wished. I highly recommend you to try and find a good hobby smith and befriend him. This gives you access to tooling and expertise and see how you like it. See how your wife likes your new permanent cologne.....Eau de Cutting Huile.....'cause that's what you're gonna smell like for the next 40 years.
 
tollfree01 said:
I understand you but I have a few counterpoints:

1. Unlike most professional trades you cant stroll in to a community college and enroll.
2. The everyday menial, simple and mundane tasks are perfect for an apprentice. Thus freeing time for more complex (profitable) projects.
3. Most people in the firearms community would gladly apprentice for free.

The incentive for the gunsmith should be to pass on the trade and keep it alive. Telling the young guys to do what they did and spend 20+ years learning on their own is ignorant and selfish. I understand that most people don't want someone they don't know hanging around their shop but there needs to be cooperation with the new guys who want to get into the trade.
Click to expand...

1.Gunsmithing in Canada really isn't a professional trade as electricians, plumbers and other tradesmen. All you need to do is have a PAL and spend $100 for a federal Gunsmithing Business license plus provincial/municipal licenses - non of which require any qualifications to be a gunsmith.
2.The everyday menial, simple and mundane tasks that an apprentice may do will require monitoring and fixing as the job that leaves the job is the gunsmiths reputation. So every menial, simple and mundane task is not that simple.
3. A gunsmithing apprentice would not be free, it takes time and money to teach him this trade.

I trained for two years at a gunsmithing school in 1966-67 and then worked at a job as well as gunsmithing. It also required a wife with a job... and after 20 years I had built a good reputation but I continued to learn and improve my skills. In these last 49 years I never have felt I had the time for a stranger access to my shop, use my equipment and to be taught for free what I have learned.


teknition said:
It's a good thing the rest of the trades don't feel this way or you make have a hard time finding a mechanic, electricial, or plumber when you need one. Don't be too surprised when you are ready to retire and there is no one standing in the line to buy your business.
Click to expand...

Comparing trades as mechanic, electrical, or plumber in Canada with a gunsmith is ridiculous. Far far more demand and money in those trades and with benefits.

When a gunsmith retires all he has to sell is his equipment. There is no business to sell as he is his business.
 
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I am going to have to go with GT on this one.....

There is no way in H E double hockey sticks I would let a newb/apprentice work on my customers guns and not stand over them and micro manage the piss outta every step they take!

I also agree with the points made about apprenticeship(s). Heck I have a journeyed Red Seal that I would t have if someone hadn't apprenticed me. It is also my opinion that the G-smith trade does not correlate to an apprenticeship. It would, however, correlate to a pre-employment program of some sort...... in other words, get your classroom cert, then get a job "helping out" in a full service shop. Experience comes from doing.

John
 
m14medic.ca said:
I am going to have to go with GT on this one.....

There is no way in H E double hockey sticks I would let a newb/apprentice work on my customers guns and not stand over them and micro manage the piss outta every step they take!

I also agree with the points made about apprenticeship(s). Heck I have a journeyed Red Seal that I would t have if someone hadn't apprenticed me. It is also my opinion that the G-smith trade does not correlate to an apprenticeship. It would, however, correlate to a pre-employment program of some sort...... in other words, get your classroom cert, then get a job "helping out" in a full service shop. Experience comes from doing.

John
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I had an apprentice at a machine shop/gun shop drill into an sks I had. It looked like it was done with a hand drill on a table with no vise. Even though it's only a 180$ gun I expect better and will never go there again.
 
I am by no means a gunsmith, but I would take schooling in the machining trade first. Once you have basic machining skills and techniques you can transfer that over to a gunsmithing career. Also if the gunsmithing slows down, you could also do custom machining for other clientele as well to expand your business.
 
tollfree01 said:
...I'm willing to travel if the course is worthwhile. I'm also having problems finding a experienced guy to apprentice under...
Click to expand...

A graduate from the Colorado School of Trades won't have any trouble finding a place to work.

Colorado School of Trades
1575 Hoyt St., Lakewood, CO 80215
(303) 233-4697 Ext. 46
Fax: (303) 233-4723

http://schooloftrades.edu/

How long will it take me to complete this program?
The program is designed to take 14 months to complete. Of those that completed the program in 2014-2015, 86% finished in 14 months.

What are my chances of getting a job when I graduate?
The job placement rate for students who completed this program is 69%.

How much will this program cost me?
Tuition and fees: $20,681
Books and supplies: $3,500
On-campus room & board: not offered

<http://schooloftrades.edu/wp-content/themes/cst/Gedt/Gedt.html>
Click to expand...
 
guntech said:
1.Gunsmithing in Canada really isn't a professional trade as electricians, plumbers and other tradesmen. All you need to do is have a PAL and spend $100 for a federal Gunsmithing Business license plus provincial/municipal licenses - non of which require any qualifications to be a gunsmith.
2.The everyday menial, simple and mundane tasks that an apprentice may do will require monitoring and fixing as the job that leaves the job is the gunsmiths reputation. So every menial, simple and mundane task is not that simple.
3. A gunsmithing apprentice would not be free, it takes time and money to teach him this trade.

I trained for two years at a gunsmithing school in 1966-67 and then worked at a job as well as gunsmithing. It also required a wife with a job... and after 20 years I had built a good reputation but I continued to learn and improve my skills. In these last 49 years I never have felt I had the time for a stranger access to my shop, use my equipment and to be taught for free what I have learned.




Comparing trades as mechanic, electrical, or plumber in Canada with a gunsmith is ridiculous. Far far more demand and money in those trades and with benefits.

When a gunsmith retires all he has to sell is his equipment. There is no business to sell as he is his business.
Click to expand...


This is why I only do simple stuff for folks coming in. I always send them to the folks that make their livings doing the serious work.
 
teknition said:
It's a good thing the rest of the trades don't feel this way or you make have a hard time finding a mechanic, electricial, or plumber when you need one. Don't be too surprised when you are ready to retire and there is no one standing in the line to buy your business.
Click to expand...


Except the rest of the trades actually make a decent entry level living in today's world, which is what I think GT was getting at. As an accomplished machinist and a firearms enthusiast, I would absolutely love to get into gunsmithing. But that's a pipe dream for myself and 99% of like minded young guys. Besides, we live in a "DIY" world, where everyone wants to have their own sense of accomplishment when it comes to firearms. Case in point, I assembled my last rifle all by my lonesome. Didn't make a single chip doing it, and boy she shoots.
 
guntech said:
My view on apprenticing is there is absolutely no incentive for the gunsmith... it would cost him money and time... something gunsmiths are normally short of.
Click to expand...

If you're anything like the two shops I've seen locally to me it's all a one man show for the actual smithing and there is simply no room or duplicate tooling to handle a second set of hands trying to work on the gun smithing.

Tollfree, There's really two aspects to being a gun smith. There's the "gun technician" part where you diagnose and swap out failed parts. That's where courses run by the gun makers come in handy. Then there's the real nitty gritty gun smithing where you machine metal to make custom parts or you machine out parts on guns to allow fitting something that is out of the run of the mill.

That second part is strictly about being a machinist first and a gun smith second. An example that I did recently..... I close friend bought a new Rossi cowboy action rifle. But it had a 24" octagonal barrel. We talked and he mentioned that it was long and was likely to slow him down maneuvering it around the stages due to the length. I agreed to cut it down roughly 4". That was all well and good. But it meant needing to mill out and recut the dovetail for the front sight and the circular dovetail for the tubular magazine. The dovetail for the magazine mount could not be cut with any of the dovetail milling cutters I had. So I made up a "dovetail fly cutter" but with a square shank that I could use with a wrench to hand cut those arc'ed dovetails. Such work isn't only about making the tooling but equally about coming up with how to do the job. This sort of job is primarily tool room machining with a side dish of "gunsmithing".

So if you want to be a good all around gunsmith dive into general machining as well as focusing on actual gun courses. You can't be a good all around gunsmith if you only take technician level courses.

Oh, and along the way you'll need to gather up some wood working skills to manage the stock modifications and repairs too.
 
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