Chinese M14 origin theories

machman said:
He's mostly right...except that the Chinese gov't was provided with the plans by American businessmen.
No proprietary machinery was sent to China.
Click to expand...

That was after the whole Philippine fiasco (and it was a fiasco - worthy of a Canadian Liberal Gov't). The Chinese decided, much later (early 1980's), to sell the remaindered receivers/rifles. They sold some to Allan Lever (who had dealings everywhere) and some to KFS (Kengs Firearms Specialties) a US importer. Kengs saw some bad stuff happening with bolt softness and other issues, so, in the mid 1980's, they arranged for the Chinese to meet some US experts, I've heard Ron Smith was there, among others. They told the Chinese what needed to happen if they wanted to sell the rifle in the US, on a technical level.

So -

1) No they aren't made on stolen/borrowed/bought US equipment

2) They were originally made to 'assist' rebels in the Philippines

3) After the original batch of guns, nothing was smuggled, and no laws were broken

4) Taiwan/Republic of China/Taipei = "good guys", Mainland China/People's Republic of China/Beijing = "bad guys"

5) In the early 1970's, ROC got Springfield's gear, PRC got a visit from Nixon

6) Why the M14 and not the M16? The M14 was, and to some extent still is, the issue rifle of the Philippine Marines. Psy-ops would suggest that carrying the weapon of your enemy's elite unit would make it look like you killed him to get it, making you look like a bad *ss mofo.
 
Psy-ops would suggest that carrying the weapon of your enemy's elite unit would make it look like you killed him to get it, making you look like a bad *ss mofo.

Yeah, this from the guys that didn't have to hump the rifle thru the bush.
 
tripoli99 said:
Psy-ops would suggest that carrying the weapon of your enemy's elite unit would make it look like you killed him to get it, making you look like a bad *ss mofo.

Yeah, this from the guys that didn't have to hump the rifle thru the bush.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I'd rather carry two M16's than one M14 dressed up for battle.
 
you have to remember what the state of the m16 was at the time- broken firing pins bolts welkded shut etc- that's why the marines had 2 m14s in every squad- weight had NOTHING to do with it- it was RELABILITY- ie a gun that works even poorly is better than none at all- an old g/s said to me at one time- the m16?- heck it don't even make a good club
 
chanman said:
Do you have a source for that? They've been making the 5.56mm Type 65/86/91 family starting from the mid-70s for a while now.

I mean, our armed forces still use BHPs from Inglis and the Rangers, No.4s from Longbranch, but neither of those have been going concerns for going on 7 decades now.
Click to expand...


Just what I've heard, but a check of Wikipedia shows that the Taiwanese army uses a licensed copy of the M14 it calls the Type 57
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Army#Small_arms
 
First Nork M14S I bought back in early/mid 2000's had CJI Springfield CA or something along those lines stamped as the importer.
 

The linked document was current in 2006. Since then, much more information came to light on the Taiwan and PRC copies of the M14. Taiwan manufactured 146,596 Type 57 rifles from 1969 until production ended in 1979. Some machine tools and a set of drawings and inspection gages were sold by the US government to Taiwan. However, Taiwan supplied most of the production machinery itself for the Type 57 project. Even with all of that, the Type 57 production work progressed slowly. As mentioned above, there was no collaboration between Taiwan and the PRC. PRC first manufactured M14 rifles in 1965. From the latest edition of the linked book:

"Four credible sources, three former military and one civilian arms importer, attest to the
veracity of the claim that the People’s Republic of China obtained M14 technical data in
1959. It is alleged that technical data on the M14 was gathered surreptitiously from the
Winchester factory at New Haven, CT. These sources also state that unmarked U. S.
manufactured M14 rifles provided to Congo were captured and turned over to the
People’s Republic of China. On November 20, 1960, the National Security Council
Special Group authorized the Central Intelligence Agency, in support of Project Wizard, to
provide arms, ammunition, sabotage materials, and training to Congo Army leader
Mobutu Sese Seko. These two particular allegations, theft of M14 technical data and
capture of Congolese held M14 rifles, remain unsubstantiated rumor. Another rumor
states that M14 rifles produced in the 1960s by the People’s Republic of China were
reverse engineered from enemy captured M14 rifles in Viet Nam. Such an endeavor
would not have been without precedent. The Nationalist Chinese government made
several thousand Model 1921 Thompson submachine guns in 1927 at its Tai Yuan
Soldier factory in Shansi Province. The Communist government produced M1 Carbines
from 1949 to 1952."

IMHO, the best theory is the five finger discount of the drawings. If the bolt drawing was not "retrieved" and the receiver dimensions are so close to the US design, it may help explain the difference between USGI and PRC bolt lug dimensions. The first instance of a captured M14 in Vietnam, to my knowledge, occurred in late June 1965. That particular rifle is on display in a museum in Hanoi. I took photos of it and researched who was the US Marine that carried it.
 
Last edited:
sgt.rock said:
Exactly, I'd rather carry two M16's than one M14 dressed up for battle.
Click to expand...

Depends on your role.

In the 1960's I'm not sure I'd take a pre-A1 M16 with the available ammo at that time over a TRW M14 with issue 7.62 ball ammo.

The m14, at that time, was proven and reliable. It was a hard hitter with excellent terminal ballistics, long range, and excellent sights.

The M16... Was none of those things yet. It was crippled by sooty surplus powder meant for a different cartridge, no issue cleaning kits, sight that required a tool to adjust, stocks prone to cracking and melting when exposed to bug spray, a 1:12 twist pencil barrel that heated up too fast, and no forward assist to help seat a round if the action got dirty.

Until the A1 mods and an ammo change, the 16 was universally hated. And the M14 remained in service in some roles well after Vietnam and up to today, where it has made a real resurgence in the order of battle.
 
I have this article that I scanned from this book. Any truth to it?

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo...e+m21&sortby=17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

Chinese_M14.jpg
 
Keep in the that the "Republic of China" (ROC) is Taiwan.

What we commonly refer to as communist "China" is the People's Republic of China (PRC)
 
The Wizard said:
Would you classify a Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistol on the same level as a M14/M305 receiver? I have seen some very good Chinese made Broomhandle copies made in the 1930's without the benefits of a TDP from Mauser.
Click to expand...

Um... might want to re-check your history... China and Germany were allies between the wars, with Germany providing heavy military and technical support. I would not be surprised if the blueprints made it through.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_1926–1941
 
EHG, the scanned article is true except that the Government of Taiwan only accepted 19 of 150 machine tools offered by the US government. Also, HRA was awarded several replacement M14 parts contracts after rifle production ended. My guess is that many of the HRA machines were well used by 1968.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom