I recently acquired one of these 941 pistols (with the de-cocker on the slide) and realized that the hammer can be placed into a "half-####" position. Can someone explain the reason for a half #### on a SA/DA pistol such as this? I am just not entirely certain I understand when it would be used. I can't imagine someone carrying the pistol would leave it loaded, safe off, and then half-cocked....
Half-#### on a Jericho 941?
- Thread starter platnumbob
- Start date
You might be right, I just assumed that the full trigger pull of DA under first shot is what makes it "safe" to carry. I guess I will have to play with the difference between hammer down and half-#### to see. The question is somewhat theoretical since I will never "carry" the pistol.
- Location
- Northern British Columbia
I believe if it is in half #### you can safely drop it on the hammer.
A half #### is only ever a safety thing - if the sear is damaged the half #### is designed to catch the hammer. You should never use a half #### notch for anything, especially not carrying a loaded pistol. It's a passive safety feature, not a usable hammer position.
This is interesting as there seem to be some different views on the subject. After dry firing from half #### a few times i am convinced that it is likely not any better for the first round then just firing from a full DA position. It is a bit shorter but the trigger pull feels about the same weight.
I might try it at the range next time just to see, but I think carry from DA would make the most sense.
I might try it at the range next time just to see, but I think carry from DA would make the most sense.
Half #### is a safety position built into the system. The hammer is prevented from contacting the firing pin. Like if you drop it on the hammer. Plus when lowering the hammer, such as on a CZ75 one pulls the trigger holding the hammer, then immediately lets go of the trigger, if their hold of the hammer slips, then the hammer is stopped before hitting the firing pin and maybe causing an AD.
Rich
Rich
Dsiwy,
You are a winner.....now try and explain that to IPSC! They just don't get it, can't believe that they allow the hammer all the way down, it's actually an unsafe condition to have the gun in....yet they DQ shooters if they put it to the half #### / safety notch!
Rich
You are a winner.....now try and explain that to IPSC! They just don't get it, can't believe that they allow the hammer all the way down, it's actually an unsafe condition to have the gun in....yet they DQ shooters if they put it to the half #### / safety notch!
Rich
Do modern semi auto's like the Jericho and CZ shadow etc have a fire pin safety of some kind? I know for ruger six shooters (for example the single six) there is a mechanism that allows the hammer to rest on a loaded chamber. This was put in place to avoid the issues of classic six shooter revolvers like the colt SAA having to be loaded with only 5 rounds to be safely carried.
It would seem crazy to make a DA/SA gun that you can't carry with the hammer down.
It would seem crazy to make a DA/SA gun that you can't carry with the hammer down.
With an SA/DA gun what enefgee posted is the case. Without a half #### position if the sear hook were damaged so the hammer did not catch and stay fully cocked then it'll follow the slide home. At that point it may or may not fire. If it fires without you pulling the trigger it could run away in a full auto burst that empties the magazine. A functional half #### position will catch it and save you from that sort of unexpected bit of excitement.
And yes, the trigger will need the same pressure but be a trifle shorter. In fact the starting pressure will be higher because the main spring is held half compressed.
Here in Canada the only real reason you might need the SA trigger pull is for competitions like Production in IPSC and SSP in IDPA or some other similar event. The rest of the time you can just load, rack or drop the slide and shoot from DA. Although if you can become fairly good at shooting from SA and then DA after the first shot you'd be that much better a shooter.
All of those guns have a shorter firing pin so the pin does not rest ON a primer. And at least some of those have a firing pin block that won't let the firing pin prodrude unless the trigger is pulled. So the block makes them totally drop safe. The pin being shorter on the others is supposed to make them MOSTLY drop safe. But there is always a risk that if the gun falls with enough energy and lands right on the nose of the barrel that the pin could snap forward with enough energy to set up a primer. It's just all about inertia. The guns are drop tested up to a point. But without an actual block they cannot be made 100% drop proof in higher energy circumstances if they have a sprung and floating firing pin.
Keep in mind that the only time you are doing this is under the control of an RO in preparation for running off a stage in a match. Or when doing some practice for such a match. I don't know of any range that allows us to walk around with loaded guns. So the only time you're at risk is during the draw from the holster. And ensuring you have a good solid grip goes a long way to reducing that sort of risk.
This, nothing else has to be said. When lowering the hammer, if the hammer slips from your grasp and the trigger is not being pulled the half #### position should catch the hammer preventing a misfire. As has been said in the quote above, it shold not be used for anything else but as a passive safety device.
Take Care
Bob
I think there is some cross platform confusion here.
In a 1911, the half #### notch is only there to catch the hammer if you let it go before it engages the sear. It should never be used intentionally. On these platforms, the firing pin does not protrude into the chamber. Hammer down is safe. Cocked and locked is safe
With a SA/DA pistol that has a decocker, in IPSC production you MUST use the decocker which rests the hammer in the half #### notch. This is considered safe. (and actually is safe) With a SA/DA pistol that does not have a decocker, in IPSC, it must be fully (and manually) decocked for the first shot. Frequently, we see this result in a negligent discharge. The decocker is MUCH safer.
Can't help but agree with Richard LPS. Manually decocking is a significant discharge risk - though thankfully, normally in a controlled direction.
Rob!
In a 1911, the half #### notch is only there to catch the hammer if you let it go before it engages the sear. It should never be used intentionally. On these platforms, the firing pin does not protrude into the chamber. Hammer down is safe. Cocked and locked is safe
With a SA/DA pistol that has a decocker, in IPSC production you MUST use the decocker which rests the hammer in the half #### notch. This is considered safe. (and actually is safe) With a SA/DA pistol that does not have a decocker, in IPSC, it must be fully (and manually) decocked for the first shot. Frequently, we see this result in a negligent discharge. The decocker is MUCH safer.
Can't help but agree with Richard LPS. Manually decocking is a significant discharge risk - though thankfully, normally in a controlled direction.
Rob!
Rob in the last 20 years or so I have yet to see an AD/ND using the thumb roll method while lowering the hammer on a DA/SA pistol. Not one. I don't know how many matches I have SO'd over that period of time but you just don't encounter them. I have seen several using the pinch method when the finger/thumb slips off the hammer. To say manually decocking a DA/SA gun is a significant risk is just not true. It is a managed risk and when properly done is no more risky than holstering, drawing or firing a pistol. There is always some risk something untoward can happen; a risk you accept when you participate in the shooting sports.
Take Care
Bob
Thanks for the input Bob. Perhaps my experience has been the exception. I have seen it twice - in a year - and no idea what method was being used. We also read about it often in discussion forums and news stories. Perhaps this is indicative of training - but it does happen.
Just don't see the point of de-cocking a gun with a perfectly good safety. (but rules are rules)
Rob!
Thanks for the input Bob. Perhaps my experience has been the exception. I have seen it twice - in a year - and no idea what method was being used. We also read about it often in discussion forums and news stories. Perhaps this is indicative of training - but it does happen.
Just don't see the point of de-cocking a gun with a perfectly good safety. (but rules are rules)
Rob!
Rob believe it or not DA/SA guns when carried by those who can or must, carry them hammer down. Some would argue a safety on a DA/SA gun is redundant. Once decocked the gun is perfectly safe and won't fire until the trigger is pulled. For high stress situations I am told a longer trigger heavier pull is a benefit it preventing the user from firing the gun when he did not intend to. If I were to carry for personal protection it would not be with a gun with a 3# trigger pull. 5#+ minimum first pull would be about where my head would want it to be. Bodies do strange things when the adrenaline gets pumping. FYI the Sig 226, one of the finest combat pistols made comes with a advertised DA pull of 10#'s. When things heat up I suspect no one in the business of using the gun for social purposes would even notice.
Take Care
Bob
