Thank you for your experienced comments...
Best combat handgun...
- Thread starter Waterfowler
- Start date
Thank you for your experienced comments...
Slightly off topic, but Sig fans are apparently still pissed that Beretta won the contract. Beretta actually did win it, and in consequent trials for replacements are the only ones who've passed the other trials. But let's not let facts get in the way.
Gun Guy, my inclusion of IPSC guys opinions into the decision making process I personally employ is done for a variety of reasons. No other group of shooters on the planet employ handguns to such a degree and abuse them as IPSC shooters do, I'm not using skillset with the pistol in combat (although you might notice that a lot of the top Tier 1 units actually participate either in private IPSC or public IPSC matches to test their skill and that those same "operators" will all tell you that the stress at a match is far worse than anything they've felt in combat, even when under fire. Training likely has a lot to do with that amongst other reasons.) No in fact I'm using the abuse of the gun and how they stand up under such usage as part of my reasoning on choosing a particular pistol as being the best "combat" pistol. As such, Glock still comes out on top.
Further, regarding the comment, "doesn't take a Navy Seal...." no, you are right, but even still, the vast majority of enthusiasts have little to no chance of actually hitting their target if someone busts through the door. First off, how many enthusiasts have ever attempted any kind of shooting under stress? Or from strange positions, or reduced lighting, or while wondering where their spouse is? Pretty much, none. Sure there may be some, but the numbers are incredibly small. How many have taken specific training for such? Again, even in the USA, pretty much none. The effect of a gun going bang, or even being presented is usually good enough to drive the threat away, thankfully. But the fact remains, most times the target will not get hit, if the gun even goes bang.
Gun Guy, my inclusion of IPSC guys opinions into the decision making process I personally employ is done for a variety of reasons. No other group of shooters on the planet employ handguns to such a degree and abuse them as IPSC shooters do, I'm not using skillset with the pistol in combat (although you might notice that a lot of the top Tier 1 units actually participate either in private IPSC or public IPSC matches to test their skill and that those same "operators" will all tell you that the stress at a match is far worse than anything they've felt in combat, even when under fire. Training likely has a lot to do with that amongst other reasons.) No in fact I'm using the abuse of the gun and how they stand up under such usage as part of my reasoning on choosing a particular pistol as being the best "combat" pistol. As such, Glock still comes out on top.
Further, regarding the comment, "doesn't take a Navy Seal...." no, you are right, but even still, the vast majority of enthusiasts have little to no chance of actually hitting their target if someone busts through the door. First off, how many enthusiasts have ever attempted any kind of shooting under stress? Or from strange positions, or reduced lighting, or while wondering where their spouse is? Pretty much, none. Sure there may be some, but the numbers are incredibly small. How many have taken specific training for such? Again, even in the USA, pretty much none. The effect of a gun going bang, or even being presented is usually good enough to drive the threat away, thankfully. But the fact remains, most times the target will not get hit, if the gun even goes bang.
Answer to OP question.
Glock 23
1. Because it is Glock.
2. G23 is smaller than G22, and perhaps smallest Glock that is ergonomic and handy enough, without being too small.
3. Caliber .40, excellent balistics and terminal performance.
Many that mentioned G19, should reconsider G23 which is pretty much the same gun with greater firepower .
Glock 23
1. Because it is Glock.
2. G23 is smaller than G22, and perhaps smallest Glock that is ergonomic and handy enough, without being too small.
3. Caliber .40, excellent balistics and terminal performance.
Many that mentioned G19, should reconsider G23 which is pretty much the same gun with greater firepower .
What is that beauty?
EDIT:
Managed to find out... 50 BMG pistol
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/DFLQd
I object to your choice for combat pistol, due to its lack of capacity.
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Rickster66
Regular
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec
The best? The one you have ammo for...lol. Not sure what the criteria for "Best" is. Under combat situations? Day? Night? Urban? Desert? Forest? Are night sights mandatory? Lots of things to consider. I'll limit it to the guns I've owned or shot. I love the 1911 and compete with it but being limited to 8 or 10 rounds suck so the 1911 is out for me. HK-45 is a great pistol but also limited to 10 rounds. The higher capacity of a 9mm would point me in the direction of my "best" combat handgun. I loved my Sig 226 but I can double tap faster more accurately with the CZ-75 SP-01 and capacity can be higher with the right mags. So for me, I'd have to say the CZ-75 SP-01 Shadow. Would I take a glock into combat sure, no hesitation. Would I prefer to take something else? Yes. Glocks are nice but I like the CZ trigger better, along with the sights.
I did my black badge but i never did compete. I find it hard to believe the stress of an ipsc match is anywhere near a combat situation when someone is shooting at you. Ipsc is against the clock. Your not gonna die if you miss.
It would definitely test out the endurance and reliability of a pistol though.
Slaxex come on, really! The reason the enthusiasts aren't going to take on their local home invader with their handgun is because virtually all of them have their guns locked up in their gun safe/gun box or cabinet. It really doesn't require any more commentary than that.
You don't know how individual is going to react in any given situation until they are faced with it and you certainly don't get any prior knowledge watching boys chasing cardboard targets with their favourite blaster, playing IPSC. To suggest otherwise is to be more than disingenuous to those who really do train for the moment they may have to take a human life. If nothing else a couple of weeks at CFSAC taught me that much.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
You don't know how individual is going to react in any given situation until they are faced with it and you certainly don't get any prior knowledge watching boys chasing cardboard targets with their favourite blaster, playing IPSC. To suggest otherwise is to be more than disingenuous to those who really do train for the moment they may have to take a human life. If nothing else a couple of weeks at CFSAC taught me that much.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
A few years ago I would agree. The 23 is a great platform but .40 is more than many people can shoot well in that size of pistol. The 19 is easier to shoot and anyone who can shoot a 23 well will shoot a 19 better. Without starting a caliber debate, all the popular service cartridges meet the FBI criteria these days, and that is the industry standard. The 19 gives you more 'firepower' with 15 in the mag (un neutered), is the exact same dimensions, is easier to put hits where they need to go, has readily available ammo almost anywhere in the world, and gets my vote (unless I have something else in my hand when I need it ). Having said that, if you can shoot a 23 it's hard to go wrong there either!
I am not saying a person shouldn't have the choice, I'm simply telling you the facts, facts that I've learned on countless tactical shooting courses with some of the best in the industry and off course, reading, again, countless reports of shootings in the USA and the few we have here. And all of that is further reinforced in my thinking by my exposure to thousands and thousands of enthusiasts over the years at my own classes and competitions around the world. Unless you take proper training and follow that up with regular, dedicate practice, the chances of you successfully deploying your gun, any gun, in a situation that calls for it, is pretty low.
And yes, according to those who have done both, the stress of a timer is far more than the stress of a shootout, this has been repeated over and over again by people who've been in combat and prolonged shootings, again, take classes, read vetted sources of information and you'll find the answers. Same goes for the bigger is better myth, all one needs to do is check out the recent FBI tests and see why 9mm is the way to go, regardless of how many it gets you in the mag. Science is an amazing thing, it actually proves stuff, and 9mm has been proven, with modern purpose chosen defence ammo, to be better than 40 and 45, period. All that told, it still pales to 223, but for a semi auto handgun that you can actually carry and use, it's the clear winner
And yes, according to those who have done both, the stress of a timer is far more than the stress of a shootout, this has been repeated over and over again by people who've been in combat and prolonged shootings, again, take classes, read vetted sources of information and you'll find the answers. Same goes for the bigger is better myth, all one needs to do is check out the recent FBI tests and see why 9mm is the way to go, regardless of how many it gets you in the mag. Science is an amazing thing, it actually proves stuff, and 9mm has been proven, with modern purpose chosen defence ammo, to be better than 40 and 45, period. All that told, it still pales to 223, but for a semi auto handgun that you can actually carry and use, it's the clear winner
I watched a video where a shooter (Vickers?) was timed hitting the slide stop or pulling the slide to put the gun in battery from lock back after a reload. The latter technique was faster. I know, just one example and in the end, it's a matter of training. If it works for you .....
This and this. I met many IPSC guys in ranges and around who really believe they are "combat" ready only from this discipline.
I did not burst the bubble. Not my type... And most of them where most probably not ready to hear what I was about to say.
At the end. Practice IPSC to have fun and to compete in a very specific type of shooting. Nothing more, nothing less. Will give you an edge on gun handling? Yes. That is all.
CAF member.
Now. I shot a Sig P226 for 10 years. Loved it. Still do. But I shoot my M&P better. Glock close behind.
I have to say. I think the simplest it is, the best it is for me now.
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Bob Vogel teaches hitting the slide stop lever because it is faster.
Go figure
Take Care
Bob
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
I don't think it really matters which technique you use. Whichever one you're trained in or comfortable in doing is the one you use. Knowing both techniques help. Hitting the slide stop to release the slide works best if you're limited to one hand shooting.
I agree. The only concern I have with the over hand method is if the shooter gets his hand over the breach. That is a recipe for a hand full of brass shards. I have seen it happen twice. Not very nice when the cartridge gets knocked off the extractor, hits the ejector and goes bang out of battery. MOst reloads in IDPA come with the slide locked back. So much faster for most to hit the slide lock lever as the gun comes back to target.
Take Care
Bob
I can't wait to see another "4 letter league" branch out blaming IDPA for not "tactical" enough, the same way IDPA was born out of disdain IPSC "pure sport" culture.
Arguing about time advantages of slide release vs hand over the slide is a perfect example of why timer is truly the curse of shooting sports.
Arguing about time advantages of slide release vs hand over the slide is a perfect example of why timer is truly the curse of shooting sports.
Still alive
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rainy mosquito infested part of BC
I hear what you're saying.
I see the timer as a source of urgency or pressure when I shoot a match, not as a timing event. I never win IDPA shoots as I don't care. I prefer to use it as training for getting used to a stressor. I hug cover, take my time looking around corners and pieing etc. I want to simulate what I would really do, not just trying to beat a clock. I would prefer all stages to be blind actually!
When I shoot, I want to shoot fast and accurate but I want to take my time getting there.
I rack over hand but I'm used to it and do it instinctively, never over the breech. But I'm not adversed to hitting the slide stop either!
