to Ackley Improve or not

[rral22]

Rman, you own a shop that specializes in AI'ing cartridges, or is there something else that makes you such a fan-boy and so defensive?

Everyone agrees that AI versions gain some performance. We just think that for many cartridges the gain is minimal, and that at least as much gain in performance (and often quite a bit more) can be simply bought by moving to another cartridge with a bigger case to start with. That's our opinion on whether or not AI is worth the expense, which was the original question, and to which there are obviously two sides or the question wouldn't have been asked. Why is the expression of the "other" opinion to yours making you so upset?

 

[tjhaile]

Over 100 fps is inconsequential? Lots will make an adjustment of some kind for that improvement. If not, then why all of the dozens of 22 cals, that pretty much all do the same thing?

R.

Nothing you shoot is going to know the difference. The existence of dozens of similar cartridges is primarily a function of marketing.

 

[Rman]

Rman, you own a shop that specializes in AI'ing cartridges, or is there something else that makes you such a fan-boy and so defensive?

Everyone agrees that AI versions gain some performance. We just think that for many cartridges the gain is minimal, and that at least as much gain in performance (and often quite a bit more) can be simply bought by moving to another cartridge with a bigger case to start with. That's our opinion on whether or not AI is worth the expense, which was the original question, and to which there are obviously two sides or the question wouldn't have been asked. Why is the expression of the "other" opinion to yours making you so upset?

Hilarious!!!

I asked you to specifically site your experience, and this is the best you could come up with? Insults? Fan-boy? Really? Are you 12 years old? So you haven't owned any AI chambered rifles, hence your citing the "we" in your response?
While I appreciate your concern regarding my feeling, I assure you that I am neither defensive, nor upset, especially considering that this is just banter on an internet forum.
If the answer was always a bigger case, wouldn't we all be shooting BMG's and Vulcans?

The AI fills my requirements quite handily. And as I stated before, what happens to work for me, certainly doesn't have to work for everyone, and anyone that feels that I am advocating that, is very mistaken.

R.

 

[Rman]

Nothing you shoot is going to know the difference. The existence of dozens of similar cartridges is primarily a function of marketing.

I agree with the first part, but would suggest that the second part has more to do with attempts to build better mousetraps, chasing improvements, and trying different things. I don't have the numbers, but would certainly suggest that 22 cal is some of the most wildcatted stuff out there. If it weren't for this, a lot of the cases we consider standard today, wouldn't exist.

R.

 

[hoytcanon]

Hilarious!!!


If the answer was always a bigger case, wouldn't we all be shooting BMG's and Vulcans?


The AI fills my requirements quite handily.

If the "answer" isn't about a "bigger case" why would someone ever AI a chamber???

And over the past four decades "I" have done MANY improved chambers... and not one of them "wowed" me...

 

[rral22]

Hilarious!!!

I asked you to specifically site your experience, and this is the best you could come up with? Insults? Fan-boy? Really? Are you 12 years old? So you haven't owned any AI chambered rifles, hence your citing the "we" in your response?
While I appreciate your concern regarding my feeling, I assure you that I am neither defensive, nor upset, especially considering that this is just banter on an internet forum.
If the answer was always a bigger case, wouldn't we all be shooting BMG's and Vulcans?

The AI fills my requirements quite handily. And as I stated before, what happens to work for me, certainly doesn't have to work for everyone, and anyone that feels that I am advocating that, is very mistaken.

R.

I hope you will accept my appology. It is quite obvious you are not at all defensive. My bad.

 

[Superbrad]

Hilarious!!!

I asked you to specifically site your experience, and this is the best you could come up with? Insults? Fan-boy? Really? Are you 12 years old? So you haven't owned any AI chambered rifles, hence your citing the "we" in your response?
While I appreciate your concern regarding my feeling, I assure you that I am neither defensive, nor upset, especially considering that this is just banter on an internet forum.
If the answer was always a bigger case, wouldn't we all be shooting BMG's and Vulcans?

The AI fills my requirements quite handily. And as I stated before, what happens to work for me, certainly doesn't have to work for everyone, and anyone that feels that I am advocating that, is very mistaken.

R.

Do you have experience you can sight where you took game with an AI 223 that you could not have taken with a regular 223?..... or a 22-250?....... in a thread like this one, OP is posing a question and expecting gains that make it "worthwhile"...... to most of us, it certainly isn't worthwhile....... but wont knock you if you do it because you like to tinker....... if you want to take the extra step and use powder, time, and expense that is your business....... if that floats your boat, then cool..... but some of us feel the money and effort is best spent elsewhere......

Love your avatar btw....

 

[Rman]

If the "answer" isn't about a "bigger case" why would someone ever AI a chamber???

And over the past four decades "I" have done MANY improved chambers... and not one of them "wowed" me...

Lots of reasons! Just as many for, as against, I suppose.
At least you've done it, and have arrived at the answer that works best for you. Isn't that the whole point?

R.

 

[Leeper]

You cannot load the AI version to any higher pressure than you can load the standard version. Sharpening a shoulder does not make the brass any stronger. In every example where there is a great gain with the "improved" version, the comparison is between a low-pressure load in the standard cartridge and an AI loaded to the nuts. Again, sharp shoulder or not, the primer pockets open up at the same pressure.
Even with cartridges which are changed significantly, the improvement in performance is often limited. Comparing a standard 303 British to a 303 Epps, for instance, shows less gain than one might wish. Exceptions occur where the increase in case capacity allows one to load just enough of a slower burning powder to reach maximum operating pressures. Using the 303 British as an example, the standard case will not hold enough 4350 to achieve max pressure behind a 165 grain bullet. In the Epps version, you can load enough 4350 to create high enough pressures to get top velocities. This scenario does not apply to the 223 AI or any other "improvement" of a modern, minimum taper, cartridge.

 

[Rman]

I hope you will accept my appology. It is quite obvious you are not at all defensive. My bad.

The comedy is non stop.
Maybe apologise for not having any experience regarding the topic at hand, but still feeling the requirement to comment on it?

I guess, according to your definition, Hoyt must be being defensive as well?

C'mon man. Grow up.

R.

 

[kawicrash]

I have a 257 Ackley, and it was equal parts of being a bit different as much as the performance gains.
The 223 however, I don't know if I'd bother. Whatever floats your boat though.
Are dies commercially available? I was able to get RCBS full-length and neck sizers for the 257, and I contacted Lee and they let me know the 257 Roberts collet dies work with the AI. Custom dies will of course add to the cost.

 

[Superbrad]

Lots of reasons! Just as many for, as against, I suppose.
At least you've done it, and have arrived at the answer that works best for you. Isn't that the whole point?

R.

Some people know how to do their research and learn from trusted others...... some people need to slam their #### in a drawer before they realize it's likely not a great idea....... if experience is the only criteria, and nobody who has actually done it should be afforded an opinion, then why have a discussion forum?.......

I fully trust Hoyt and some others and make my opinion based on posted gains...... I am a novice reloader admittedly..... but If doing the AI thing on a .223 would net me even 100 fps, then I question the value of doing so and having to fireform brass and all of the other baggage that goes with it......

Now, if you WANT to do it while understanding the minimal gains then fill your boots..... but that is not in the spirit of the OP is it?.... he is expecting big gain he wont get......

 

[Rman]

Do you have experience you can sight where you took game with an AI 223 that you could not have taken with a regular 223?..... or a 22-250?....... in a thread like this one, OP is posing a question and expecting gains that make it "worthwhile"...... to most of us, it certainly isn't worthwhile....... but wont knock you if you do it because you like to tinker....... if you want to take the extra step and use powder, time, and expense that is your business....... if that floats your boat, then cool..... but some of us feel the money and effort is best spent elsewhere......

Love your avatar btw....

Brad, the answer to your question is obviously no, but then it also isn't the only criteria to decide if one wants to AI, or not. And in keeping with theme, it would be impossible to answer your question, without being tagged as "defensive", but I'm sure that's why you worded it the way you did?
Powder, time, and expense? How is this any different than it is in any other rifle? Or in two separate rifles?

I like bullets that are heavier for calibre. I also like them to go 3K plus fps. In most cases, I don't see an advantage to making them go much faster than that. I also like Lapua brass. I shoot a fair bit. I don't like brass prep, and I despise trimming cases, although do, because I have OCD, and like consistency. Could I do all of these things with non AI'd cases? Yup. Why didn't I? Especially in the 22 cal? Because Lapua doesn't make the brass, and the 22-250, for me, is too much case for 22 cal bullets, based on the fact that if I wanted to launch 80 or 90 grain bullets at Warp 9, I would use the 243AI to do it.
Lots of different roads lead to the same path. The road above is the one I took, based on the criteria stated, mostly. I left a bunch out, as one page posts get to be a bit much.

How's that?

And, since we are tossing complements about, I like your sig line, and have quoted it often.

R.

 

[RickF]

I had had several Ackleys including two different 223AIs. The first was a 24" 14 twist, which limited the bullets I could use. It gave me 3600+ feet per second with 50 grain bullets. The second was an 8 twist 22 1/2". It gave me the same velocity with 50 grain bullets, and 3050 with 75 grain Amax'es. H335 and RL15 respectively. Great little cartride. Feeding can be an issue in some actions, especially M700s.

If I had an action and I proved that it would feed well with the 223 Ackley case, I would have zero hesitation doing it again. Longer case life, minimize case trimming, etc.

Off the top of my head, I have had Ackleys in that cartridge, the 22–250, 243, 257 Roberts, 7 mm – 08 and 280 Remington. The ones that really stuck out to me as great cartridges worth the while were the 223 providing it feeds, the 22-250 and 253. The parent 22-250 and 243 have enough taper so you see a difference.

They're not magic. It's not rocket science to see what case capacity increase is, and extrapolate what velocity you can expect. You don't need to hot rod them.

One observation. You can always tell the guys who talk more about shooting than they actually shoot when they talk about needing to fire form and how much hassle it is. Especially with Lapua brass, your fireform 100 brass in an afternoon. You can wear out most barrels with 100 Lapua brass.

 

[rl4930]

I have a set of almost new redding type s neck bushing dies in 223 AI I would be willing to sell you as I no longer shoot that calibre. The gains you realize will be modest to pretty decent. but the real benefit is reloading and prep work is next to nil. You never have to trim.

 

[rl4930]

I had had several Ackleys including two different 223AIs. The first was a 24" 14 twist, which limited the bullets I could use. It gave me 3600+ feet per second with 50 grain bullets. The second was an 8 twist 22 1/2". It gave me the same velocity with 50 grain bullets, and 3050 with 75 grain Amax'es. H335 and RL15 respectively. Great little cartride. Feeding can be an issue in some actions, especially M700s.

If I had an action and I proved that it would feed well with the 223 Ackley case, I would have zero hesitation doing it again. Longer case life, minimize case trimming, etc.

Off the top of my head, I have had Ackleys in that cartridge, the 22–250, 243, 257 Roberts, 7 mm – 08 and 280 Remington. The ones that really stuck out to me as great cartridges worth the while were the 223 providing it feeds, the 22-250 and 253. The parent 22-250 and 243 have enough taper so you see a difference.

They're not magic. It's not rocket science to see what case capacity increase is, and extrapolate what velocity you can expect. You don't need to hot rod them.

One observation. You can always tell the guys who talk more about shooting than they actually shoot when they talk about needing to fire form and how much hassle it is. Especially with Lapua brass, your fireform 100 brass in an afternoon. You can wear out most barrels with 100 Lapua brass.

Exactly, and I found decent loads while fire forming that shot amazing.

 

[Rman]

Some people know how to do their research and learn from trusted others...... some people need to slam their #### in a drawer before they realize it's likely not a great idea....... if experience is the only criteria, and nobody who has actually done it should be afforded an opinion, then why have a discussion forum?.......

I fully trust Hoyt and some others and make my opinion based on posted gains...... I am a novice reloader admittedly..... but If doing the AI thing on a .223 would net me even 100 fps, then I question the value of doing so and having to fireform brass and all of the other baggage that goes with it......

Now, if you WANT to do it while understanding the minimal gains then fill your boots..... but that is not in the spirit of the OP is it?.... he is expecting big gain he wont get......

I would think that for one to fall into the trusted others category, he would have to have actual experience, as opposed to an opinion developed whilst riding the couch? Opinions should be just that, and never be presented as fact. I'm all for discussion, obviously, but think discussions would be far more worthwhile when actual experience can be cited, as opposed to best guesses.
The OP didn't state what gains were to be expected. The real answer to his question depends on his own definition of what "worth it" means. I have zero regrets about my choices, and would do it again for the reasons I provided. Others reasoning, obviously, will be different from mine, and trust me, I am way more than OK with that.

R.

 

[Superbrad]

Brad, the answer to your question is obviously no, but then it also isn't the only criteria to decide if one wants to AI, or not. And in keeping with theme, it would be impossible to answer your question, without being tagged as "defensive", but I'm sure that's why you worded it the way you did?
Powder, time, and expense? How is this any different than it is in any other rifle? Or in two separate rifles?

I like bullets that are heavier for calibre. I also like them to go 3K plus fps. In most cases, I don't see an advantage to making them go much faster than that. I also like Lapua brass. I shoot a fair bit. I don't like brass prep, and I despise trimming cases, although do, because I have OCD, and like consistency. Could I do all of these things with non AI'd cases? Yup. Why didn't I? Especially in the 22 cal? Because Lapua doesn't make the brass, and the 22-250, for me, is too much case for 22 cal bullets, based on the fact that if I wanted to launch 80 or 90 grain bullets at Warp 9, I would use the 243AI to do it.
Lots of different roads lead to the same path. The road above is the one I took, based on the criteria stated, mostly. I left a bunch out, as one page posts get to be a bit much.

How's that?

And, since we are tossing complements about, I like your sig line, and have quoted it often.

R.

Being transparent........ you need to fire form your brass......

.223 is likely among the most available brass, will give you that...... fire forming the brass will require effort, time and money...... as well as powder, a primer etc..... reloading will require dies etc......

I completely "get" that a gun nut might want to do it "just because"...... but fail to see where an AI 223 would meet expectations......

If you have the coin to get your jollies out of making a .223 perform better, and if that tickles your whiskers....I fully support you....

Just don't think it applies to op....

 

[prairie lover]

Wow... I don't even know where to start on this post...

To start with, if you aren't getting 400+ fps more out of the 22/250 over the 223 out of the same barrel length... I don't care if it is 20/22/24/26", you are seriously screwing something up.


Next you say that the .22/250 holds "no clear advantage" over the .223 in a 22" barrel, but then declare that advantage to be 150 fps... but you encourage the OP to chase his AI tail to net a 100 fps gain (I and others know you won't actually see an extra 100 fps).

Using your own faulty numbers, going the AI route doesn't make sense.

That was the results with that individual 22250 with a 22 inch barrel over my chrony. Not pie in the sky wishful thinking. It was 150 fps faster than my 223. Both loaded hot. Not punch the numbers into a ballistics calculator and see how much those 150 fps get u. It's not much. Those 150 fps r gone in 30 to 40 yards. Big deal. 250 fps like we saw with the 24 inch barrel I would consider acceptable cause the 22250 burns a lot more powder. Did we just have a slow barrel 22250? Could be. But that's been my experience. The 24 inch barrel did a lot better.

So by my own faulty numbers if I wanted a bit more jam than a 223 from a 22 inch barrel coyote rig I would ai it. It should be Damm close to the 22 inch barrel 22250 then. Of course a longer barrel 22250 will leave it behind.

U gotta remember with 50 to 55 gr bullets which is what I did the testing with the 223 uses faster burning powder and about 25 gr. Give or take a couple. The 22250 uses 36 give or take a couple. And it uses slower powder. That's why it in my opinion does better with a longer Barrel.

That has been my experience. Shot over my chrony same day. All half a grain under stiff bolt lift. Simply a velocity test.

 

[RickF]

I notice I called the 243 Ackley the 253. Several friends and I have long called the 243 Ackley the 253. It is definitely more cartridge velocity-wise than the 243.