Battle of the Bulge - 16 December 1944
- Thread starter purple
- Start date
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
In hindsight, this was a desperate gamble to try to force the western allies to a negotiated peace. In reality it cost thousands of lives, spent most of the strength the Germans had left on the Western front and hastened the end of the war. Those there, did not have the benefit of hindsight, to them the war was very much in doubt.
Yeah, the Ardennes offensive was totally Hitler's conception and all of the German general staff was against it. The Germans at that point hadn't the resources to ensure success. The offensive actually did shorten the war as it expended valuable assets in a futile effort. German armour actually ran out of fuel short of their objectives. Plus the gritty stand of the 101st Airborne further frustrated Hitler's plans.
Makes you wonder how millenials would fare, or even soft suburban guys like myself. Hats off to the vets for their balls of steel, perseverance and courage against tyranny. Couldn't imagine having to go through that on nights like tonight.
TacticalTeacher
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Georgian Bay, ON
Likely would not have much reception so their smartphones would put them at a disadvantage! LOL
Cheers,
Barney
American troops suffered from a severe shortage of winter clothing during the Bulge. After the romp thru France and Belgium logistics planners saw the war wrapping up by Christmas and failed to get in sufficient stocks of winter gear. You see pics of troops wearing the light M1941 field jacket and leather boots instead of greatcoats and winter footwear. There were a lot of frostbite casualties and trench foot as a result.The Ardennes is high country with a lot of snow and that penetrating damp cold that exists in Europe.
I went thru a winter Reforger exercise and couldn't conceive of being out in the field without proper winter gear. Rations and medical supplies were frozen. The only good side was that the cold helped to srop bleeding.
I went thru a winter Reforger exercise and couldn't conceive of being out in the field without proper winter gear. Rations and medical supplies were frozen. The only good side was that the cold helped to srop bleeding.
Funny you say that, I though about that yesterday as I spent the day in -25 wearing leather boots. I kept thinking of band of brothers where he's striping off the dead guys boots. I think about this stuff quite abit actually, Helps put your current situation in perspective. Spent many a day and night on a rig floor all day in -35, that sucks. But sleeping, getting bombed and shot at, with insufficient everything would be, well, hell.
Last edited:
Lol that answers my question and explains so, so much haha
The cold probably affected the attackers more than the defenders, certainly the poor state of the roads combined with the poverty of German logistics favoured the US. Some of the Germans were Volksgrenadier, and 50,000 horses were used, which is hard to imagine. The German retreat must have been particularly hard for the people who had to walk back home.
Very like the Eastern Front in terms of misery. I don't like the cold, I wouldn't have fared well.
It is a pity they didn't do a deal with Germany before that, but Hitler was a stubborn fellow.
Very like the Eastern Front in terms of misery. I don't like the cold, I wouldn't have fared well.
It is a pity they didn't do a deal with Germany before that, but Hitler was a stubborn fellow.
The Germans had experienced two winters on the Eastern front, so overall they were much better prepared for winter warfare than the Americans. The lack of fuel was the critical flaw in the plan, though there were many other factors. The Ardennes offensive probably helped shorten the war in Europe by several months, and likely saved Germany from being nuked like Japan.
If there had been a negotiated peace earlier in the war, the atrocities of the death camps would likely have never come to light. The complete collapse and occupation was probably the best outcome. There are still people that deny the existence of the holocaust even with all the evidence collected at the end of the war. Without the occupation and eyewitness accounts it would be even easier for certain elements to deny the holocaust.
If there had been a negotiated peace earlier in the war, the atrocities of the death camps would likely have never come to light. The complete collapse and occupation was probably the best outcome. There are still people that deny the existence of the holocaust even with all the evidence collected at the end of the war. Without the occupation and eyewitness accounts it would be even easier for certain elements to deny the holocaust.
Great post OP, I was wondering the past few months how to mark the event so if I may jump in with a few pics of a BotB veteran. Pics just taken today, I was going to back it out on the drive and in the snow but think the old boy has, done it, seen it, all before (that and I hate making work for myself) temps and conditions are no doubt EXACTLY (-14c and snowing) as back in the day (less the gunfire.... explosions.... death... destruction.........).
At some point this winter I will be trailering the vehicles out to a more rural setting for some "back in the day" type pics as seeing the Dunkelgelb in the snow is pretty cool.
At some point this winter I will be trailering the vehicles out to a more rural setting for some "back in the day" type pics as seeing the Dunkelgelb in the snow is pretty cool.
Last edited:
We studied the Battle of the Bulge in some detail when I attended the US Army Command and General Staff College. It offered some enduring lessons in some key areas which were useful to keep in mind when we were squared off to meet the Soviet hordes in Germany.
Intelligence was a big lesson. The allies had lulled themselves into complacency believing that the Germans could not launch another major offensive in the west. The US had basically screened the Ardennes, rather than defending the area in strength, believing that the hilly, forested terrain with few roads was a significant obstacle. The Germans achieved surprise at both the operational and tactical levels. The Germans had invaded through the Ardennes before in 1872, 1914 and 1940, so it wasn't unreasonable to expect that it could happen again. The 7 mile wide Losheim Gap was a dangerous route, which had been used each time before, but it was only screened by light cavalry patrols and became an area of major effort. A big lesson in operational security and constant intelligence gathering.
The German offensive was based on high speed operations led by panzer formations which moved on the few routes available and sought to achieve high speed penetrations into the allied rear. Movement was canalized to the few roads available and was vulnerable to interdiction at defiles thru high and forested areas and at key crossroads. American countermoves had to be directed at choking off these routes and holding road junctions, like the ones at St Vith, Mamedy and Bastogne. Every bit of delay imposed this way was gold. That's why the early fighting at St Vith and later holding of Bastogne was so critical. Soviet doctrine was based on continuous high tempo offensive operations along movement corridors which could be doctrinally predicted and template on the terrain so we drew the same conclusions in planning to defend against them.
Once the weather improved allied airpower was used to destroy German forces in contact and to interdict routes and reinforcements in the rear. This was a prelude to the Airland Battle doctrine which hit the street in 1980 and was based on deep attack to separate follow on Soviet echelons and destroy them while troops in contact fought their lead echelons.
The Bulge was an excellent illustration that the best way to handle an enemy penetration is to beef up and hold both shoulders securely to limit the width of the penetration and then allow the enemy to advance to some depth where he could be cut off and chewed up by attacks from the flanks and become isolated from his logistics and reinforcements. This is basically what Patton's Third army achieved when moving up from the south to relieve Bastogne. There were equally effective US attacks on the north side of the German bulge.
Logistics was a big lesson. The Germans had everything in the shop window and had weighted their armored formations, but they were basically road bound with a horse and wagon logistics system which was short on fuel and could be interdicted from the air. Its never good when your logistics plans for an attack are based on capturing enemy fuel supplies intact. Probably as many German tanks were neutralized by running out of gas than by being destroyed. As the battle developed US logistics continued to improve while German capacity diminished. Availability of arty ammo was and still is a big determinant.
Intelligence was a big lesson. The allies had lulled themselves into complacency believing that the Germans could not launch another major offensive in the west. The US had basically screened the Ardennes, rather than defending the area in strength, believing that the hilly, forested terrain with few roads was a significant obstacle. The Germans achieved surprise at both the operational and tactical levels. The Germans had invaded through the Ardennes before in 1872, 1914 and 1940, so it wasn't unreasonable to expect that it could happen again. The 7 mile wide Losheim Gap was a dangerous route, which had been used each time before, but it was only screened by light cavalry patrols and became an area of major effort. A big lesson in operational security and constant intelligence gathering.
The German offensive was based on high speed operations led by panzer formations which moved on the few routes available and sought to achieve high speed penetrations into the allied rear. Movement was canalized to the few roads available and was vulnerable to interdiction at defiles thru high and forested areas and at key crossroads. American countermoves had to be directed at choking off these routes and holding road junctions, like the ones at St Vith, Mamedy and Bastogne. Every bit of delay imposed this way was gold. That's why the early fighting at St Vith and later holding of Bastogne was so critical. Soviet doctrine was based on continuous high tempo offensive operations along movement corridors which could be doctrinally predicted and template on the terrain so we drew the same conclusions in planning to defend against them.
Once the weather improved allied airpower was used to destroy German forces in contact and to interdict routes and reinforcements in the rear. This was a prelude to the Airland Battle doctrine which hit the street in 1980 and was based on deep attack to separate follow on Soviet echelons and destroy them while troops in contact fought their lead echelons.
The Bulge was an excellent illustration that the best way to handle an enemy penetration is to beef up and hold both shoulders securely to limit the width of the penetration and then allow the enemy to advance to some depth where he could be cut off and chewed up by attacks from the flanks and become isolated from his logistics and reinforcements. This is basically what Patton's Third army achieved when moving up from the south to relieve Bastogne. There were equally effective US attacks on the north side of the German bulge.
Logistics was a big lesson. The Germans had everything in the shop window and had weighted their armored formations, but they were basically road bound with a horse and wagon logistics system which was short on fuel and could be interdicted from the air. Its never good when your logistics plans for an attack are based on capturing enemy fuel supplies intact. Probably as many German tanks were neutralized by running out of gas than by being destroyed. As the battle developed US logistics continued to improve while German capacity diminished. Availability of arty ammo was and still is a big determinant.
Last edited:
Very concise, Purple!! A great and quick read as to why the Germans lost the Battle of the Bulge instead of racing to the Channel as they did in '40.
I still think that the best Allied General was Adolf Hitler
Had ol' Adolf let his Generals do the generaling - something they were highly trained for while Adolf's highest rank was Corporal - WWII in Europe may have lasted much longer than it did. Hitler's decisions in battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad, North Africa and Kursk cost the Axis powers men and equipment they could not afford to lose.
I doubt that Germany could have won the European war as the Soviets, British/Canadians and US far outproduced Germany in terms of war materiel, and Germany had a finite population to draw men from (70 million pop, the rule of thumb is that 10% of a country's population could be used for military service), and few allies outside Central Europe.
I still think that the best Allied General was Adolf Hitler
Had ol' Adolf let his Generals do the generaling - something they were highly trained for while Adolf's highest rank was Corporal - WWII in Europe may have lasted much longer than it did. Hitler's decisions in battles such as Stalingrad, Leningrad, North Africa and Kursk cost the Axis powers men and equipment they could not afford to lose. I doubt that Germany could have won the European war as the Soviets, British/Canadians and US far outproduced Germany in terms of war materiel, and Germany had a finite population to draw men from (70 million pop, the rule of thumb is that 10% of a country's population could be used for military service), and few allies outside Central Europe.
Further proof of the saying that once the battle starts, all plans change.
German plan was dependent on the weather and capturing gasoline to sustain it, there was no real hope of success and most of the participants below Hitler knew it. Good thing they had Monte around to save the day. 
didn't do anythinggto enhance his status with the american commanders.http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/monty-holds-a-press-conference
Grizz
Last edited:
kelseyscooter1
Regular
- Location
- Central Alberta
this is why they are called the greatest generation! I have tremendous for the men and women that fought WW2.
Or it might not have started. Most of the German military liked the revival of German military power under Hitler but certainly not all thought it was a good idea to actually take it out on the road again, and as a person the former corporal rubbed a lot of them the wrong way.
