Coyote Wolf hybred?

c-fbmi said:
Any interaction I have ever seen in the Yukon, between coyotes and wolves, has always ended in a dead coyote.
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For sure Douglas..... what many don't understand is that using the term "wolf" is like using the term "duck"..... there are many sub species...... you guys have only the western grey wolf, most commonly known as "timber wolf"...... your coyotes also are much smaller in size because they do not interbreed with those large wolves.....

Here, we have Western grey like you in some areas as well as eastern grey wolves which are right between coyotes and Timberwolves in size and hence interbreed with both....... this is why our coyotes can get much larger, as they have exposure to wolf DNA........ and some get a reddish coat as we also have red wolves, which are slightly larger than a coyote in stature......

You are absolutely correct that the coyote and timber wolf do not interbreed........
 
Superbrad said:
For sure Douglas..... what many don't understand is that using the term "wolf" is like using the term "duck"..... there are many sub species...... you guys have only the western grey wolf, most commonly known as "timber wolf"...... your coyotes also are much smaller in size because they do not interbreed with those large wolves.....

Here, we have Western grey like you in some areas as well as eastern grey wolves which are right between coyotes and Timberwolves in size and hence interbreed with both....... this is why our coyotes can get much larger, as they have exposure to wolf DNA........ and some get a reddish coat as we also have red wolves, which are slightly larger than a coyote in stature......

You are absolutely correct that the coyote and timber wolf do not interbreed........
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Ok, thanks Brad. Can we get back to the snakes now? Because somehow there is an interdependence of the two stories: that what the geneticists and the wildlife biologists are telling us about eastern coyotes and eastern wolves is most certainly a fairy tale unless bull snakes can breed with rattlers to produce silent killers. Really. The snake rumor analogy is practically evidence. Like in the Scopes trial, one side of the hybrid wolf/coyote conversation is argued on strength of convictions and apparently nothing else.
 
Unlikely a lone male wolf would kill a coyote ##### in heat.....and don't think a male coyote would be poking a female wolf either...who's your daddy?................Harold
 
Londonshooter said:
Ok, thanks Brad. Can we get back to the snakes now? Because somehow there is an interdependence of the two stories: that what the geneticists and the wildlife biologists are telling us about eastern coyotes and eastern wolves is most certainly a fairy tale unless bull snakes can breed with rattlers to produce silent killers. Really. The snake rumor analogy is practically evidence. Like in the Scopes trial, one side of the hybrid wolf/coyote conversation is argued on strength of convictions and apparently nothing else.
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Sorry........I disagree...... they are all canids........

If you can mix a lab with a poodle and get a Labradoodle, you can easily mix an eastern grey with a yote....to think these wild animals put the same classes on themselves to create clear definitions so we can hunt them as such is naive at best ......
 
I didn't realize this was a debate at all? Have seen an entire documentary on Coy-Wolves (they called them that) and a few news articles about it as well but don't really remember the specifics?
 
So how did eastern wolves get coyote DNA in them? How did eastern coyotes get wolf DNA in them? How did the red wolf get coyote DNA in them?

A recent DNA study showed the red wolf was just a grey wolf with coyote in it. We really only have grey wolves and coyotes and a lot of mixed subspecies to make all kinds of Sizes.
 
Once I watched a deer run across my pasture and 30 seconds later a dog appeared on its trail that was very obviously at least part yellow lab. She stopped on the deer track and rested and a minute later her year old pup arrived and he looked 100% wolf. The two of them continued after the doe. I'm sure there are people on here that will say wolves only kill dogs and interbreeding is a rare. Maybe it is rare. In fact I have seen a wolf loping effortlessly across the yard to try to lure my dogs toward the pack in waiting and presume the idea was to rip my guys apart.
I would not have believed it otherwise but the nature of things episode shows a coyote among a pack of wolves in Algonquin at the den site. Regardless of how frequently it may happen that is strong evidence that interbreeding between these subspecies is real.
 
Well the Innuit tethered their female sleigh dogs to get bred with wolves did they not to get crosses for more stamina..........Harold
 
Superbrad said:
Sorry........I disagree...... they are all canids........

If you can mix a lab with a poodle and get a Labradoodle, you can easily mix an eastern grey with a yote....to think these wild animals put the same classes on themselves to create clear definitions so we can hunt them as such is naive at best ......
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This, bullsnakes and rattle snakes don't even belong to the same family, that'd be like saying a lion and a wolf would let alone could breed
 
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prairie lover said:
So how did eastern wolves get coyote DNA in them? How did eastern coyotes get wolf DNA in them? How did the red wolf get coyote DNA in them?

A recent DNA study showed the red wolf was just a grey wolf with coyote in it. We really only have grey wolves and coyotes and a lot of mixed subspecies to make all kinds of Sizes.
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The wolves got the coyote DNA in it by EATING them........ lol
 
Londonshooter said:
Ok, thanks Brad. Can we get back to the snakes now? Because somehow there is an interdependence of the two stories: that what the geneticists and the wildlife biologists are telling us about eastern coyotes and eastern wolves is most certainly a fairy tale unless bull snakes can breed with rattlers to produce silent killers. Really. The snake rumor analogy is practically evidence. Like in the Scopes trial, one side of the hybrid wolf/coyote conversation is argued on strength of convictions and apparently nothing else.
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This was sarcasm (relating to posts 38/39). Sorry if anyone thought otherwise. Forget the snakes.
 
Notice the only Hybrid stories that continue onward are the scary ones? Things that can harm you? Probably cooler telling the Wife and kids about the hunting trip that way " It was a wolf/coyote hybrid, it almost attacked me!"
It's probably the chupacabra!
Can just see the elder surrounded by Wide eye'd children around a fire now, lol. Probably is a buried part of our psyche...'Must prove the dangers that I overcame outside of the comforts of the cave'
Had a look at a few of the Links provided and they often involved testing fecal matter...no time to sort through that Sh*t myself.
But crack on with the story...:d
And Happy New Year all.
 
Superbrad said:
Sorry........I disagree...... they are all canids........

If you can mix a lab with a poodle and get a Labradoodle, you can easily mix an eastern grey with a yote....to think these wild animals put the same classes on themselves to create clear definitions so we can hunt them as such is naive at best ......
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Poodles and Labs are both the same species, and are genetically much closer to each other than Coyotes and Wolves...but I certainly agree with your general point. Biologists as a group have always swung back and forth between two camps: the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Lumpers tend to put closely related animals together into the same species designation, thus decreasing the number of species that are officially recognized. Splitters tend to subdivide organisms into smaller and smaller groups that are all officially recognized as separate species, thus increasing the total number of recognized species.

Nobody suggests that yotes and wolves are the same species, but there has always been disagreement about the classification of wolves. Guys on here are talking about "grey wolves", "timber wolves", "red wolves" and others as if they are all distinct species. This is a slippery slope; it's not easy for Bambi-ists to convince the general population that we shouldn't shoot coyotes when they are common across the continent. The same logic should apply to wolves, but when we start talking about a zillion different "species" of wolf, then suddenly it becomes much easier to bang the drum about each species being endangered or threatened. Look at the debacle surrounding wolves in Algonquin Park. No sooner does some labcoat announce that they are "distinct", than we can no longer shoot a wolf near the park. The more "splitting" goes on, the worse this will become.
 
jjohnwm said:
Poodles and Labs are both the same species, and are genetically much closer to each other than Coyotes and Wolves...but I certainly agree with your general point. Biologists as a group have always swung back and forth between two camps: the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Lumpers tend to put closely related animals together into the same species designation, thus decreasing the number of species that are officially recognized. Splitters tend to subdivide organisms into smaller and smaller groups that are all officially recognized as separate species, thus increasing the total number of recognized species.

Nobody suggests that yotes and wolves are the same species, but there has always been disagreement about the classification of wolves. Guys on here are talking about "grey wolves", "timber wolves", "red wolves" and others as if they are all distinct species. This is a slippery slope; it's not easy for Bambi-ists to convince the general population that we shouldn't shoot coyotes when they are common across the continent. The same logic should apply to wolves, but when we start talking about a zillion different "species" of wolf, then suddenly it becomes much easier to bang the drum about each species being endangered or threatened. Look at the debacle surrounding wolves in Algonquin Park. No sooner does some labcoat announce that they are "distinct", than we can no longer shoot a wolf near the park. The more "splitting" goes on, the worse this will become.
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You make a good point here about the divide and conquer tactics of the anti's but I think comparing an eastern red wolf to a western timber wolf is akin to comparing an Arizona coues deer to an Alberta whitetail. They really are quite different in temperament, habits,appearance and size, even though they may be 99% genetically the same. I'll stick to my assertion that until someone can provide me with a genetic test, I don't believe western timber wolves cross with western coyotes.
 


Photo from a few years ago, those are 6' stretchers

I was curious as to how long a western coyote would be nose to base of tail?

Side note, I've gotten a few of the reds, one that looked like it had some German Shepard in it and one that was almost white.
 
Average adult coyote measures about 44 inches on a Nafa official stretcher. I've seen real big ones tat were all coyote in my opinion go 8 to 10 inches longer than average nose to base of tail. I also got one years ago one of those bigger ones that had a tail unlike anything I've seen since. It measured an honest to God 10 inches in diameter at its widest point. It had more the profile of a fox tail compared to the body than a coyotes. It was a big old male that weighed just shy of 40 pounds on a scale. I've matched his weight but to date never beat it. Yet...
 
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