What bullets you use for 45-70?

Lonesome Donkey said:
My ballistics calculator gave these results.

Zeroed for 100 yards:

Bullet impact was 3.2" high at the mid-range distance of 50 yards. Velocity was 1123 FPS.

Bullet Velocity was 1063 FPS at the zeroed distance of 100 yards.

Like I said, only Black Powder velocities are required, even at 100 yards.

This load killed Buffalo quite well at that range. Heavy bullets, like cannon balls, do not require high velocity to be effective killers.

And, I never said anything about using it at long range. That was your interpretation.

And, the accuracy out to 100 yards, with a good bore, will be equal to any bullet fired from any good rifle.
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Two things. First lower velocities actually increase penetration because the bullet doesn't upset as much upon impact. 500gr from a 45-70 can out penetrate the same bullet from a 458 wm going like 500fps faster. Second, just because it was used to slaughter the bison doesn't mean it's a good choice. We owe it to the game we hunt to do it cleanly and humanely, things the bison hunter had little concern for.
 
Suther said:
Two things. First lower velocities actually increase penetration because the bullet doesn't upset as much upon impact. 500gr from a 45-70 can out penetrate the same bullet from a 458 wm going like 500fps faster. Second, just because it was used to slaughter the bison doesn't mean it's a good choice. We owe it to the game we hunt to do it cleanly and humanely, things the bison hunter had little concern for.
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Your two points are in conflict...

The first is bunk.

I agree with the philosophy of the second.
 
If the frontal area of the bullet expands a great deal under high impact speed then limited penetration will result. Larger bullet frontal area means more resistance to penetration.

This 45 caliber Remington 405gr bullet which impacted a Bull Moose's shoulder at an angle at about 1600 fps penetrated only about 18". Had it been a solid it would have went clean through and into the forest.

DSCN1650.jpg
 
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hoytcanon said:
Your two points are in conflict...

The first is bunk.

I agree with the philosophy of the second.
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I can't remember where I saw it and if it was even true, but did read that a bullet from a 4570 going BP speed will indeed out penetrate a 458 win mag with the same bullet.
 
Bullets with the same sectional density and the same expansion characteristics will penetrate much differently at different velocities. The slower bullet will expand less, have a smaller frontal diameter and will thus out-penetrate the same bullet moving at a higher velocity.
 
hoytcanon said:
Your two points are in conflict...

The first is bunk.

I agree with the philosophy of the second.
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"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester."
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Garrett doesn't think it's bunk.
 
Suther said:
"Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester."
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Garrett doesn't think it's bunk.
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That is not a function of speed or energy... it is the result of the stability and design of that particular bullet... suggesting that MORE energy results in LESS penetration (all else being equal) is as assine as insisting that driving 60 km/hr will result in arriving at your destination more quickly than if you are travelling 100 km/hr.

If you want to discuss and compare depth of penetration there are many factors to table, simply stating that a slower bullet results in deeper penetration is faulty logic and misleading.
 
There are more factors to penetration than velocity and weight....... bullet type and construction, medium it is trying to penetrate just to name a few.... to make the assertion that simply moving a bullet slower will allow more penetration doesn't hold water..... if it did, I would of be hunting whitetail with a slingshot and a 50 cal ball......

Garrett's test is flawed from the beginning, especially considering he is only using two data points.....
 
I suspect that to be the case, but it does illustrate that simply throwing the same bullet faster doesn't always necessarily mean more penetration once you add in factors like bullet construction.

Take it back to the 60 kmh and 100 and kmh example. If your tires aren't designed to travel at 100 kmh, that 60 kmh vehicle will drive further.
 
Slamfire said:
Maybe the solid bullet exhibits 1 or more of the failure modes that limit penetration? Nice marketing claim however.
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hoytcanon said:
That is not a function of speed or energy... it is the result of the stability and design of that particular bullet... suggesting that MORE energy results in LESS penetration (all else being equal) is as assine as insisting that driving 60 km/hr will result in arriving at your destination more quickly than if you are travelling 100 km/hr.

If you want to discuss and compare depth of penetration there are many factors to table, simply stating that a slower bullet results in deeper penetration is faulty logic and misleading.
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I'm no expert, and I didn't do the test, I'm just relaying info I've read.

That said, i can see this working in two ways. First, higher velocities cause greater deformation, and increased frontal area will decrease penetration. Second, higher velocities lead to larger temporary cavities, whereas as a slower bullet uses most of its energy for penetration.

Garrett claims 1300fps ish gets max penetration, which makes sense to me, too slow and you just don't have the energy, too fast and the bullet upsets or spends too much energy on temporary cavity/hydraulic shockwave.

Of course i haven't done extensive testing, so it's all Internet hearsay.
 
Slamfire said:
"When penetration is vital..."

"...45-70 ammunition for those in pursuit of, or defending from, large and dangerous game..."
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/about.html

Using my Marlin 45-70 on dangerous game? Now that would be a hoot! But I think there are better choices like my 416 Remington Magnum. Not as cool but neither is getting stomped. :p
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Oh I'm certainly not agreeing with those sorts of statements. There is more to killing something quickly than penetration...
 
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