*** CZ 858 Update ***

[derrick1978]

If you're going to try and correct someone, you should maybe get your facts right first. First the receiver wasn't touched. The addition was on the dust cover and the furniture. The lab has guidelines that they have to follow. There is no room for emotions. If what you are trying to suggest was truly the case then almost every firearm to come to the lab would be given a prohibited designation. We wouldn't have non restricted "black" rifles. Your argument isn't supported by any facts or even common sense. The RCMP don't care and guess what, the lab doesn't either. That's no more likely to get the firearm listed as prohibited than putting hello kitty stickers on a known prohibited firearm is going to get it a non restricted classification.

Please don't mistake what I'm saying as some sort of justification for the lab classification. I truly hope this was an oversight/mistake that will be cleared up shortly in Wolverine's favour.

Actually, the addition was to the bolt carrier group. So your facts are also incorrect and maybe you should also straighten up. Clearly, the lab hasn't approved this rifle, for which you lack an appropriate explanation other than an oversight or mistake. Your argument for the hope of an oversight/mistake is severely lacking in the area of common sense. It is very unlikely that this is a mistake on the part of the lab and is a highly unlogical conclusion.

 

[Epoxy7]

Actually, the addition was to the bolt carrier group. So your facts are also incorrect and maybe you should also straighten up. Clearly, the lab hasn't approved this rifle, for which you lack an appropriate explanation other than an oversight or mistake. Your argument for the hope of an oversight/mistake is severely lacking in the area of common sense. It is very unlikely that this is a mistake on the part of the lab and is a highly unlogical conclusion.

Yes, we all get it. You don't understand the firearms laws. WE already guessed this. The dust cover on the CZ858 is the breach block carrier. The actual controlled item on this type of firearm is the receiver. The breach block carrier/dust cover or even the bolt carrier group isn't the controlled item. If you look at the FRT information you will see that the "receiver" has " CZ 858 Tactical -2P" on it. Exactly the same as the ones that are listed in the OIC as non restricted. So the only item which in Canada is considered the firearm ie the receiver isn't marked differently and is the same as the ones in the OIC. Thanks again for trying out.

The lab lists this as a new model. It isn't. It doesn't require a new FRT entry as it is the same as the one on the OIC. Changing ones CZ858 furniture to wood and adding the aftermarket ambi breach block carrier doesn't change the designation of your firearm nor does it make it a new model. So yes I would say this was an oversight or mistake. Once again I bring you to the Tavor, the ACR, the XCR etc etc as examples of non restricted firearms that simply wouldn't be if the biased/politics and unprofessional that you espouse was rampant at the lab.

 

[MET]

Correct, to be exact "CZ 858 Tactical - 2P" the same as they have always been marked, absolutely no changes to the markings on the "Frame or Receiver" which as we all know is the one controlled part.

Unfortunately there is a lot of miss information been spread about, I am really not sure where it is all coming from!

I believe the misinformation is coming from many members right here on CGN...

Plus when one reads headings such as "The RCMP is banning the CZ858 rifle: Sign the petition to stop this gun grab!" from Faith Goldy at The Rebel many people assumed the RCMP is banning "all" CZ858's. Maybe if it read "The RCMP is banning the latest imported CZ858 rifles: Sign the petition to stop this gun grab! "

http://www.therebel.media/come-and-take-them

I am not slamming Faith Goldy, she is great.

 

[derrick1978]

Yes, we all get it. You don't understand the firearms laws. WE already guessed this. The dust cover on the CZ858 is the breach block carrier. The actual controlled item on this type of firearm is the receiver. The breach block carrier/dust cover or even the bolt carrier group isn't the controlled item. If you look at the FRT information you will see that the "receiver" has " CZ 858 Tactical -2P" on it. Exactly the same as the ones that are listed in the OIC as non restricted. So the only item which in Canada is considered the firearm ie the receiver isn't marked differently and is the same as the ones in the OIC. Thanks again for trying out.

The lab lists this as a new model. It isn't. It doesn't require a new FRT entry as it is the same as the one on the OIC. Changing ones CZ858 furniture to wood and adding the aftermarket ambi breach block carrier doesn't change the designation of your firearm nor does it make it a new model. So yes I would say this was an oversight or mistake. Once again I bring you to the Tavor, the ACR, the XCR etc etc as examples of non restricted firearms that simply wouldn't be if the biased/politics and unprofessional that you espouse was rampant at the lab.

You're the one who wrote that the emblem was on the dust cover, that's incorrect. You used hope of a mistake for the basis of your last argument, it's hard to justify further argumentation against magical- thinking.

 

[Epoxy7]

... The receiver should have been left "cz 858 2-p" and there wouldn't have been an issue. But instead smugness ensued and the receivers were marked with "spartan" and " moan labe", and created an unrequired animosity.

Remind me again which part is considered the firearm for the CZ858 here in Canada? Oh that's right... it's the receiver!!! Was the image on the receiver? Why no it wasn't.

You're the one who wrote that the emblem was on the dust cover, that's incorrect. You used hope of a mistake for the basis of your last argument, it's hard to justify further argumentation against magical- thinking.

Yes I used the wrong terminology for the non regulated/irrelevant to classification part. Congratulations way to really find the flaw in the argument. It's actually completely irrelevant. But yes please cling onto that small battle after loosing the war. I forgot how petty some can be when they try to cling onto anything to save their ego. It shouldn't have surprised me though in your case. It's pretty common to see such pettiness in the face of someone with a poor/incorrect argument having to use terms such as "cognitive dissonance" to try and camouflage their lack of knowledge. You're trying too hard.

Oh yes hope of a mistake. Actually I used the law as the basis of my argument that it was a mistake. I used "hope" to leave it open in case their was technical information we haven't been provided. New information changes things.

So when this gets cleared up are you going to do the honorable thing by manning up and admitting you were wrong? Or can we fully expect you to quietly slink away in denial?

 

[derrick1978]

Remind me again which part is considered the firearm for the CZ858 here in Canada? Oh that's right... it's the receiver!!! Was the image on the receiver? Why no it wasn't.



Yes I used the wrong terminology for the non regulated/irrelevant to classification part. Congratulations way to really find the flaw in the argument. It's actually completely irrelevant. But yes please cling onto that small battle after loosing the war. I forgot how petty some can be when they try to cling onto anything to save their ego. It shouldn't have surprised me though in your case. It's pretty common to see such pettiness in the face of someone with a poor/incorrect argument having to use terms such as "cognitive dissonance" to try and camouflage their lack of knowledge. You're trying too hard.

Oh yes hope of a mistake. Actually I used the law as the basis of my argument that it was a mistake. I used "hope" as a way to try and cushion the fact your argument was based on incorrect information. This goes back to that little "receiver" mistake you made earlier.

So when this gets cleared up are you going to do the honorable thing by manning up and admitting you were wrong? Or can we fully expect you to quietly slink away in denial?

The decision wasn't a mistake, that's a ridiculous assertion. This firearm has been used in recent history in high profile crimes and was likely why it came under scrutiny and was classified as prohibited. A mistake was acknowledged, that being that it was allowed to be imported in the first place. My point was that propoganda that was unnecessarily antagonistic was used to market the rifle, and it backfired. You are obviously suffering from cognitive dissonance, review your poorly constructed argument.

 

[patsow87]

Tisk tisk

 

[Epoxy7]

The decision wasn't a mistake, that's a ridiculous assertion. This firearm has been used in recent history in high profile crimes and was likely why it came under scrutiny and was classified as prohibited. A mistake was acknowledged, that being that it was allowed to be imported in the first place. My point was that propoganda that was unnecessarily antagonistic was used to market the rifle, and it backfired. You are obviously suffering from cognitive dissonance, review your poorly constructed argument.

You need to go back to school and get your learn on.

Let me spell out the argument: Often those who try to use $20 words to dress up a 20 cent idea have trouble with comprehension:

1) Receiver is the firearm in Canada for the CZ858. The other parts aren't controlled.
2) The receiver doesn't have any extra markings (Contrary to what you tried to claim). The markings are the same as the already classified non restricted firearm
3) Therefore the firearm in question is non restricted since it's a model/type already deemed non restricted by OIC

4) The lab designated it a new model. If this was a new model then they would be correct at it being prohibited. At least based on the current full auto receiver/converted determination (but that's another debate).
5) The lab made a mistake by labeling this a new model as it isn't.

6) The lab could be correct if there is technical information we don't know regarding the receiver, which could make it a new firearm model and therefore require a new FRT number/designation.

7) You are basing your opinion that everyone else works on pettiness and emotion. I suspect this is a case of projecting one's own traits onto others . The current crop of non restricted firearms here in Canada counters the pettiness and not allowing what they don't like into the country argument.

 

[crazyjackrabbit]

Whats with all the douchebaggery girls? Change your ####ing tampons already and use all nagging and negativity to get my cz858 released!

Agreed

 

[Epoxy7]

Whats with all the douchebaggery girls? Change your ####ing tampons already and use all nagging and negativity to get my cz858 released!

Agreed

Or you guys can actually contribute rather than just trying to ramp up the post counts. We're probably looking at a few weeks to a month before we hear anything new on this anyways. As a CZ858 owner I'm fairly interested in this one. Especially after going through the first round of prohibitions with both the CZ858 and the PE90.

 

[derrick1978]

You need to go back to school and get your learn on.

Let me spell out the argument: Often those who try to use $20 words to dress up a 20 cent idea have trouble with comprehension:

1) Receiver is the firearm in Canada for the CZ858. The other parts aren't controlled.
2) The receiver doesn't have any extra markings (Contrary to what you tried to claim). The markings are the same as the already classified non restricted firearm
3) Therefore the firearm in question is non restricted since it's a model/type already deemed non restricted by OIC

4) The lab designated it a new model. If this was a new model then they would be correct at it being prohibited. At least based on the current full auto receiver/converted determination (but that's another debate).
5) The lab made a mistake by labeling this a new model as it isn't.

6) The lab could be correct if there is technical information we don't know regarding the receiver, which could make it a new firearm model and therefore require a new FRT number/designation.

7) You are basing your opinion that everyone else works on pettiness and emotion. I suspect this is a case of projecting one's own traits onto others . The current crop of non restricted firearms here in Canada counters the pettiness and not allowing what they don't like into the country argument.

You're deflecting your own mistake with the dust-cover back on to me. Cognitive dissonance is hardly a $20 word; however, it's the perfect term to describe The state of an individual coming up with such a flawed argument. You obviously have significant emotional investment in holding on to your 858 under NR status, which is causing you to see this decision through rose-coloured glasses. Your assertion that a historically partisan organization wouldn't operate on pettiness and emotion is laughable. Do you also hold hope that the ban on high-cap 10/22 mags was a mistake?



I would encourage others who are getting involved to read the frt report, then envision how the report would read if it was a standard "cz 858 2-p". It's my opinions, that the marketing provided to the frt, that you can also read, and the additional markings to the rifle were used as an excuse to classify the rifle as a new model. Just because I can formulate an opinion, doesn't mean I agree with the decision that was made. In fact, I vehemently disagree with it. This is an extremely partisan organization, for many reasons, and to think otherwise is a mistake. It would be worth considering for wolverine to resubmit a subdued generic marketing for this rifle to the frt, as well as removing the furniture and refinishing the bolt carrier. If it still doesn't get approved, it's evident what's going on.

 

[MustangFrank]

The idea that the Lab has classified these prohib because of the Molon Labe markings seems flawed to me. They do give the reason in the FRT that these are made from converted auto receivers that are not covered by the previous OIC. This is either a fact or the Lab made a mistake.

If the prejudice against the slogan were correct, there would be prohib decisions against the pistols already allowed and The Dlask AR's with this slogan (on the frames !). The argument does not support the facts.

 

[crazyjackrabbit]

I actually am interested in the out come, but this back and forth stuff get to be a bit much. Agree to disagree and drop it...

Depending on how things go with what Mr W is doing it could affect other items or future items. Could also be a double edge sword for the gun community... Never know how things may fall in the end. I get the impression that Mr W may also be concerned about this and thus being carefull on how he is approaching this.

Hopefully itll be a positive outcome, and potentially lead the ground work to other questionable things that have been done recently....mag related.

Or we could win this battle but could backfire on us. Maybe they revisit all classifications and change other things around while under review...

As in how exactly this model was put together and where whatever markings are Im not 100% sure so cant comment unless I look into it deeper first

 

[derrick1978]

The idea that the Lab has classified these prohib because of the Molon Labe markings seems flawed to me. They do give the reason in the FRT that these are made from converted auto receivers that are not covered by the previous OIC. This is either a fact or the Lab made a mistake.

If the prejudice against the slogan were correct, there would be prohib decisions against the pistols already allowed and The Dlask AR's with this slogan (on the frames !). The argument does not support the facts.

Did you read the the lab report? I didn't look at the rifle, I read the report. How did it become a cz 858 2p spartan limited edition? Did wolverine make the mistake of submitting it as such? The 858 is considered to be a converted fa receiver, only nr rifle to be based on such a receiver. This fact was used as justification for the previous prohibition, which we overcame. Why would one deliberately provide the fodder necessary to classify it as a new model? Did wolverine shoot themselves in the foot? Or did the lab take the liberty of doing so? If so, do you think the " come and take it" lingo helps? The lab was privy to that same diatribe that you were on page 1 of this thread. Also, this issue has nothing to do with other nr. or res. platforms that dlask is offering and can hardly be regarded as facts.

 

[doublelung]

tagged

 

[derrick1978]

I actually am interested in the out come, but this back and forth stuff get to be a bit much. Agree to disagree and drop it...

Depending on how things go with what Mr W is doing it could affect other items or future items. Could also be a double edge sword for the gun community... Never know how things may fall in the end. I get the impression that Mr W may also be concerned about this and thus being carefull on how he is approaching this.

Hopefully itll be a positive outcome, and potentially lead the ground work to other questionable things that have been done recently....mag related.

Or we could win this battle but could backfire on us. Maybe they revisit all classifications and change other things around while under review...

As in how exactly this model was put together and where whatever markings are Im not 100% sure so cant comment unless I look into it deeper first

Also, the company is likely to have a financial obligation in excess of 200 grand in inventory they can't sell, which should also be a concern to the community. This is another type of attack the left has openly disclosed....to cripple retailers financially. They wish to tie up inventories, have banks and cc companies refuse to do business with...etc. This was done to marstar about 15 years ago.

 

[derrick1978]

In light of new information, my position has changed. I'm 110% incorrect in my opinion and this is obviously a mistake on the part of the frt. I have faith it will be corrected as soon as humanly possible. I would also like to apologize to epoxy7 for any aggravation I may have caused him. My opinions now mirror his going forward, all other information and opinions should disregarded as fallacy. Sorry to any and all others I may have offended.

 

[Midnight Rider]

.....

 

[MustangFrank]

Did you read the the lab report? I didn't look at the rifle, I read the report. How did it become a cz 858 2p spartan limited edition? Did wolverine make the mistake of submitting it as such? The 858 is considered to be a converted fa receiver, only nr rifle to be based on such a receiver. This fact was used as justification for the previous prohibition, which we overcame. Why would one deliberately provide the fodder necessary to classify it as a new model? Did wolverine shoot themselves in the foot? Or did the lab take the liberty of doing so? If so, do you think the " come and take it" lingo helps? The lab was privy to that same diatribe that you were on page 1 of this thread. Also, this issue has nothing to do with other nr. or res. platforms that dlask is offering and can hardly be regarded as facts.

The argument was the prohib classification was due to the extra markings such as Molon Labe. The facts are there are other firearms with the same markings that have not been classed prohib. Thats all. I don't understand the rest of your reply. Sorry.

 

[derrick1978]

The argument was the prohib classification was due to the extra markings such as Molon Labe. The facts are there are other firearms with the same markings that have not been classed prohib. Thats all. I don't understand the rest of your reply. Sorry.

At this point, what difference does it make? According to the PM's littering my inbox, it was a simple mistake.