30-30 cast bullet not hitting target

[Robert Nicholson]

I've recently started reloading 30-30 using cast .309, 165gr. from BulletBarn with 25gr. of Imr 3031 and the bullets will not hit the target.
They make an evenly distributed circle of about 24" in diameter around the bullseye at 25yards, further out it gets worse. Some of
the bullets are hitting sideways. I use three rounds of factory ammo to check my Winchester 94 at each session and they always
hit point of aim at any distance. I am also loading .310, 110gr copper jacketed bullets which are hitting the target almost as accurately
as the factory ammo. I am also loading 25-20Win with 85gr. cast from BulletBarn that is almost as accurate as factory ammo.

What might be wrong?

 

[Sherlock Gnomes]

Could be undersized bullets? Did you use a gas check for the bullet.?

 

[yomomma]

I have heard/read that you should not swap between copper and lead bullets. Clean your gun thoroughly to make sure all copper is gone before shooting lead

 

[Robert Nicholson]

Could be undersized bullets? Did you use a gas check for the bullet.?

The bullets measure .309 as promised but no, I'm not using a copper gas check.

 

[yomomma]

25grn is a little hot for lead with no gas check

 

[big boar]

As Yomomma has said, ALL COPPER OUT. (I've read some people have done it without cleaning the copper but I'm not one of them). Also, using gas checks makes it easier to get good results unless velocity is very very low.
My experience with the 30-30 is it has a short throat so the bullet seats deep in the case, below the neck. Measure your OAL and determine if your bullets base is seated below the case neck. If it does, you may have the base of the bullet "rivet" up when hit by the charge going off, then it has to size DOWN when it enters the bore. Not good for accuracy. I had a 30-30 that was very finicky because of this so you'll have to do some reading on how to deal with this issue. Best of luck.

 

[aric84]

How old is the rifle and have you checked the bore diameter? My enfield did the same thing, huge pattern but no tumbling and that was with jacketed rounds. Turns out that my bore was in the neighbourhood of .316 diameter. I went with a larger .327 bullet and the groups tightened right up. I am also using gas checks on them so that likely helps as well.

It it is a Marlin with micro groove rifling, there is more surface area in the bore so you will need a larger bullet even if the bore diameter is nominal. 308. Bullet needs to be able to fill the additional rifling.

 

[just having some fun]

309 is a bit small but could be ok
25gr. of Imr 3031 is a bit on the hot side but could be ok
no gc ??? could be ok
all 3 to geather =??

do you have other powders ???? Unique ???

 

[Robert Nicholson]

So.... I need to experiment with a few things, put on gas checks, get bigger bullets for my old model 94 and clean out the copper. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Lonesome Donkey]

So.... I need to experiment with a few things, put on gas checks, get bigger bullets for my old model 94 and clean out the copper. Thanks for the tips.

I looked at Bullet Barn's website and those 165 grain bullets are plain-based and are not designed to take gas checks.
These would be best limited to velocities below 1600 FPS, and .309" may be too small for your rifle anyway.
You could try using a reduced load like 10 grains of Unique which would give you about 1550 fps with this bullet and see if the bullets stop
key-holing and accuracy results.
25 grains of IMR-3031 is driving your plain-base bullets at 1900 FPS or so, which is too much.

All of the gas check bullet designs from Bullet Barn already have gas checks fitted.
Maybe try buying the .303 180 grain gas check bullets from them and size them from .313" to .311". (Lee sizer kit)
Or buy a .311" round or flat nose bullet mold and size these to .311.
Hard cast gas checked bullets like Bullet Barn's should work well in your Winchester 94 because it has conventional deeper Ballard rifling.
With a gas checked bullet of .311" you could probably achieve good accuracy at 1800 FPS.

 

[Dake21]

If it's a marlin 336 with micro-groove barrel try bullet of .311 dimension and keep the FPS below 1600. Mine shoots 165gr sub-sonic ammo really good.

 

[yomomma]

Son, you are starting to scare me. I think you need to hit the books and review most of your processes.

This is probably bad for me to say, especially since I don't have much experience, but I have frequently fired off milsurp ammo with quarter inch splits
in various places. Steel cased ammo is more brittle and usually had poor quality control. I fired off one of my brass cased 30-30 cartridges that I badly
seated a bullet into and created a split in the neck, the case seems fine, I will just trim the split off and anneal.

 

[jethunter]

I've recently started reloading 30-30 using cast .309, 165gr. from BulletBarn with 25gr. of Imr 3031 and the bullets will not hit the target.
They make an evenly distributed circle of about 24" in diameter around the bullseye at 25yards, further out it gets worse. Some of
the bullets are hitting sideways. I use three rounds of factory ammo to check my Winchester 94 at each session and they always
hit point of aim at any distance. I am also loading .310, 110gr copper jacketed bullets which are hitting the target almost as accurately
as the factory ammo. I am also loading 25-20Win with 85gr. cast from BulletBarn that is almost as accurate as factory ammo.

What might be wrong?

Might be:
bullets undersized
gas cutting of bullet
powder charge too light

Undersize bullets and gas cutting have already been discussed, oo I'll just add that your powder charge is very light and very low pressure, might not be burning too consistently or cleanly.

 

[Robert Nicholson]

Son, you are starting to scare me. I think you need to hit the books and review most of your processes.

Well thanks, you young whipper snapper, but I'm not much of a reader, I prefer hands on experimentation.

 

[Robert Nicholson]

Might be:
bullets undersized
gas cutting of bullet
powder charge too light

Undersize bullets and gas cutting have already been discussed, oo I'll just add that your powder charge is very light and very low pressure, might not be burning too consistently or cleanly.

Not burning cleanly? ^^ I am getting a big puff of gray smoke with these loads, I thought it was the red wax in the bullet grooves but maybe not?

 

[jethunter]

Not burning cleanly? ^^ I am getting a big puff of gray smoke with these loads, I thought it was the red wax in the bullet grooves but maybe not?

Like you, I'm just guessing. But there is something very wrong in a rifle that is shooting factory ammo ok to shoot 2ft groups at 25 yds with cast bullets.

Your load is very low pressure. The wax is contributing to the smoke but I expect your light load is making smoke too. Quickload estimates your load is under 20K psi and that 10% of the powder isn't even burning. The powder burn would not be very clean or consistent. I find I need to approach the 30K psi range for IMR3031 to do well.

Key holing cast bullets might be caused by:
- velocity (and therefore spin rate) is too low to stabilize the bullet.
- a severely fouled bore
- undersize bullets.
- poor bore condition (pits and damaged rifling)

Cast bullets accuracy can be poor if the bore contains a buildup of copper jacket material. It's a good practise to scrub the bore before you start shooting cast bullets if old copper fouling might be present.

I assume the barrel crown is ok and that the bore has no serious issues. Often a pitted bore will shoot jacketed bullets Ok but not cast bullets. If the bore isn't in good condition it's usually best to stick to jacketed bullets only.

I would be suspicious of the bullet fit, and heavy copper fouling, and light loading - in that order. It might be a combination of more than one thing that's giving you problems.