the original black & green pump shotguns - Winchester 1897 -&- Ithaca M37

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madashell

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the original black & green shotguns - Winchester 1897 -&- Ithaca M37

Don't own either one ..... yet.

There's no doubt short 870's and the various length 590a1's rule the black & green pump HD/"tactical" pump world..... and for good reason.

To you, how viable are the 97 & M37 against the big two pump SG's ?

Would love to own a 14" M37 and a 18.5" takedown 97. They both still seem like very valid and useful HD type weapons.

What's your though's on the originals ?
 
The Ithaca 37 can still hang with ANY other pump functionally, except when it comes to being able to rapidly port load it.

It shows its 100 year old design roots when it comes to tuning and maintenance however, it has lots of fiddly little bits, it's components are not necessarily drop-in interchangeable, and the skeletonized lifter forks are somewhat fragile and can be sensitive to timing issues.

I don't know much about the 1897 other than its more difficult to make it cycle smoothly compared to later designs, and that it's take down feature sees to it that its sometimes carried in contexts where bringing a shotgun would otherwise not be practical, like when travelling on a road trip or on certain hikes.

Don't forget about other early repeater shotgun designs as well, like the Savage Model 520, Browning Auto 5 and Winchester Model 12.
 
Just so you know, the 97's are great guns, but getting parts is getting harder since the cowboy gang loves them (and they have a LOT of little parts). If you have big paws, you have to watch for bolt bite. I have 2 originals and one of the Norinco's (which is surprisingly good once you've shot it a while to smooth it out). Love them both, but also love my Wingmasters too. Both have their place
 
I'd love to have a model 12 trench gun,the winchester is probably one of my favorite shotgun designs and they are just so dam smooth.
 
M37 is smooth. Probably real good for a lefty (bottom ejection).

I used my 1897 in a match and found the trigger hard to get my finger on. It comes back at an angle. I am tempted to have it bent/welded to a more vertical position.
 
One thing both the 37 and the 1897 have going in their favor, especially the latter, is that they have much shorter receivers than the 870 and Mossbergs.

This makes for livelier handling and less of a reach to cycle the fore end.

On my 1957 vintage 2.75" chambered Ithaca for example, the reach is a good 1.5" shorter than an 870 with the same length of pull on the stock, it makes a noticeable difference.
 
What got me thinking about these classics as original black & greens was re-watching McQueen's Bullitt.

The 97 takedown in two parts inside the assassins trench coat probably seemed very modern at the time.

Agree with the negative points on a lot of little parts in both designs. Hard to argue the simplicity brilliance of the 870 & 590a1.

Interesting point on the trigger angle Ganderite. Was looking at some pictures the other night and the odd angle of it caught my attention.
 
870P said:
One thing both the 37 and the 1897 have going in their favor, especially the latter, is that they have much shorter receivers than the 870 and Mossbergs.

This makes for livelier handling and less of a reach to cycle the fore end.

On my 1957 vintage 2.75" chambered Ithaca for example, the reach is a good 1.5" shorter than an 870 with the same length of pull on the stock, it makes a noticeable difference.
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Yes, very good point 870P. I find some of the Turkish SG's even worse than the 870 for this. Recently I had an ATA on a table next to an 870P and didn't realize how much longer the Turk is compared to the Remington ! Seems unnecessary.
 
Does the 1897 retail shells in the tube in a similar fashion to the Model 12?

{video is a bit derp, but you get the idea}

 
It looks like Ithaca has finally come its senses and made their Model 37 Defense available with removable barrels.

Hopefully they can be convinced to offer a 13.5 or 14" barrels as well?
 
870P said:
It looks like Ithaca has finally come its senses and made their Model 37 Defense available with removable barrels.

Hopefully they can be convinced to offer a 13.5 or 14" barrels as well?
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A 14" would be awesome !! Glad to see them drop the soldered in barre.... what a stupid idea.
 
870P said:
They still also offer them soldered for whatever reason.

I'd definitely get a short one, even though they'd probably be STF-12 money in Canada.

http://ithaca-gunworks.com/product/model-37-home-defense/
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Yup, they'd be pricy to get here.

I like em, but can't see spending that much on one. I'm interested in a bunch of this order stuff, but I've come to the conclusion it's really hard to beat an 870 or 590a1 as solid tools.
 
Sorry can't answer your 1897 tube loading question above 870P, have no clue. Had no idea the Model 12 loads in this manner. Kinda weird. Seems like it could cause issues doing this quickly.
 
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New or old production, nothing handles quite like a 37 either. I wish they kept the same receiver dimensions, but what can you do. I look forward to seeing the new 37s in Canada...again, hopefully with a 14 inch barrel ;)
 
Yeah I like the 37's for sure, and agree it would be great if they kept the older receiver dimensions.

I can deal with some of the older design aspects of the 37, but like 870P says ... there's a lot of little fiddily parts and that's kind of a red/flag concern for me.
 
madashell said:
Yeah I like the 37's for sure, and agree it would be great if they kept the older receiver dimensions.

I can deal with some of the older design aspects of the 37, but like 870P says ... there's a lot of little fiddily parts and that's kind of a red/flag concern for me.
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The fiddly bits means than the 37 takes longer to detail strip but there's nothing scary about it.

I was about to figure it all out easily after watching a quick YouTube video.

The design is simple and I believe it actually uses fewer parts than the 870 and 500 series overall, it's just some of them are tiny, like the shell latch coil spring that almost looks like it came out of a mechanical watch.

Still, its no big deal and you probably don't have to deal with them very often, my 37 reportedly had 75,000 rounds through it when I got it and I think I was the first one to give it a detail cleaning!
 
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