204 ruger > Big bore.... what?

[kodiakjack]

Sounds like a fun test. (Minus the ungutted dear part). Thanks

 

[rifleman338]

Long story short, someone on a hunting group I was on was deciding between Marlin 45-70 models for black bear. Someone butted in claiming 45-70 wouldn't be effective, and something like there 204 ruger would be better.
Saying that at the range, there friend shot a steel plate with a 45-70 and it didn't damage the plate, but the 204 took a chip out of it, thus the 204 is more powerful cartridge and penetrates better.

What would you say to something like that? They seem 110% convinced there correct. I don't agree, but I don't have a 204 either so I don't know.

I realize most people prefer the smaller faster calibers, but a 204? Have to draw the line somewhere

I'd say have your 204 loving buddy strap on a GoPro and do a ground stock, maybe in some thick stuff as it would make for an interesting watch on Youtube fails. Anyone who talks this kind trash has not seen what a properly loaded 45-70 can do. We have always ran a 405gr gas check, hard cast, RCBS style @ around 1650fps and when you hit something, it looks as if you dropped a cement truck on top of them. A buddy of mine shot an adult bull moose on a full out run with this load a couple years ago and when the bullet made contact, the bull stopped like he ran into a cement wall. As for penetration, it was in and out. Went in the left side shoulder and out the right shoulder then through a 7" tree on the off side. Unless you have seen in in person, you will not understand how effective the 45-70 really is. I have shot moose at distance with 3006, 300Win and 340 Weatherby's, but at range from in your face to say 200yds, the 45-70 will be hard to beat.

 

[the spank]

Had this same conversation with a fellow who was convinced a 7.62x39 was more powerful than a 30-30 because it sunk the bullets further into a tree trunk. I said you are using a FMJ non-expanding bullet in your SKS, not a round noise soft point that is expanding on impact and transferring energy over a wider area losing it's pointed shape and slowing penetration. He could not get that a 170gr pushing around the same velocity had more muzzle energy but could not penetrate as deep no matter how I tried to explain the difference in bullet types? Oh well.....carry on.

It would be cool though to see Mr.204 almost get his azz chewed off by a big ole bear after splattering a couple varmint rounds against a nice heavy fall hide.

Though it would not be so cool for the bear.....

 

[Suther]

I set up various targets to represent what I thought would be as close to a bear as possible. Real moose leg bones. Packaged meat on both sides. Deer carcass from a road kill center all wrapped in an old leather jacket. I shot it with a 223, 243, 25/06, 270 and a 45/70

The 55 gr soft nose bulk bullet was flattened against the moose bone. It did not break it. The 243 was using 100 gr fed blue box I'm not sure what bullet is used but I think it's a game king but I'm not certain. It broke the moose leg and left a lot of damage but didn't make it thru the dead deers ribs. The 25/06 with 117 gr interlock at 3100 fps smashed the moose leg went thru 2 hams the leather jacket and the dead deer with the bullet under the hide of the deer on the far side. The 270 was nearly the same with 130 gr core lock.
The 45/70 with 405 gr round nose Remington at 1600 fps went completely thru. It didn't tear up the first ham near as bad as the faster rounds but it left a 2" hole all the way thru
From this experiment I learned several things. First use a gutted deer carcass if you intend to try to get your bullets back. Second hams get expensive. Most importantly I learned not to reply on paper ballistics. I have a new confidence in both the 25/06 and 45/70.
I agree on a small to medium bear the 243 would do just fine but what if you're hunting in the fall and that 500 lb boar comes in? Will that same 243 be up to that task? To me personally...no. a different bullet may have a different outcome. I'm not saying it won't kill the bear. I just thinking the 25/06 is superior using heavier bullets that are slightly wider.
The 25/06 fits so perfectly between 243 and 270 I sold the 270 and never bought a 243 with the intent to keep it

I won't tell you how to hunt but just remember not all bears are the same build

The 243 fed blue box uses a jacketed soft point. They don't say what kind of bullet beyond that so its not a game king or any other brand name bullet.

So you are saying it went through a ham, a moose leg bone, and into the second ham, and left a lot of damage. To me, that sounds like great preformance. If it'll take out a moose leg I see no reason why it wouldn't take out a bears ribs otw to its vitals.

Obviously shot placement and shot selection are key, and trying to take a marginal shot at a bad angle isn't a good idea with any caliber, especially the quarter bores but it is entirely doable (taking a bear that is, not marginal shots) especially with a premium bullet.

Here in BC the woods are thick and you can't bait so It's never a bad idea to have backup. My two hunting partners both only have 3006s so there is almost always one close by.

 

[bearkilr]

Black bear can cover ground at a blazing speed, and they always head for the thickest cover. The risk with using small bullets that don't exit is that you won't find the bear, as there will be little blood. The chances of being ambushed and charged by a wounded black bear is near nil. The chance of recovery after it travels a few hundred yards(even with a good shot) and dies are slim. That's the main reason it's a good idea to use a large, stout bullet that penetrates and exits. It's not that smaller ones won't kill, but it's nice to recover your bear also.
Shot placement is part of the equation, but there's more involved than that alone. Many seem to think otherwise.

 

[hoytcanon]

black bear can cover ground at a blazing speed, and they always head for the thickest cover. The risk with using small bullets that don't exit is that you won't find the bear, as there will be little blood. The chances of being ambushed and charged by a wounded black bear is near nil. The chance of recovery after it travels a few hundred yards(even with a good shot) and dies are slim. That's the main reason it's a good idea to use a large, stout bullet that penetrates and exits. It's not that smaller ones won't kill, but it's nice to recover your bear also.
Shot placement is part of the equation, but there's more involved than that alone. Many seem to think otherwise.

x2...

 

[brybenn]

That's why I like to break the front shoulders. Bears have thick hard bones. I can bait here in Ontario and when I do use my 25/06 wolves are my primary target but i've taken bears with it. The internal damage is gruesome. I prefer my 45/70 or 458 wm. I sometimes carry a 300 wm as well.

Bears hides are thick and if they're carrying 4" of fat in the fall fast expanding bullets can be greatly hampered by the time they reach the vitals.
I like an exit hole. In my experience the more light I've let in them the faster they die. It's a terrible thing to shoot and loose an animal
I put 2 600 gr brenneke gold slugs into an old boar and wasn't able to find him. First shot at 110 yards flattened him for about a minute. I stood up to climb down and he got up and ran with his front leg flopping loose. At about 80 yards I put a second slug thru him a bit far back but still in the ribs. I saw the hair part and the sand past him spray up. I've never seen an animal move so fast. All I got was a blood spray and some hair along with the slug I dug up. 5 hours searching with 2 buddies and never found it

 

[Slamfire]

Actual field experience.

Goes to show reliable straight through heavy caliber penetration is needed.