What do I have here? European proof mark experts needed!

Longwalker

Longwalker

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Saskatchewan
This nice old European shotgun followed me home from the Calgary gun show. I'd like to know more about it. All I know is that the 16 ga. barrels are German Krupp steel, both the 28" set and the 32" set are choked R skeet and L extra full, the original 65MM chambers have been lengthened to 70MM (2-3/4") and the only serial number is "5" on the underside of both barrels and the action flat. It bears no makers name, and very few proof marks. I could not find matching proof marks anywhere on line when doing the usual Google search. It is very well made, light, and the action is still crisp and solid. There is no rust on or in the barrels and no significant wear on moving parts. Excellent shape for a gun I estimate at 100 years old. It will become my bird gun when hunting grouse, partridge and pheasant with pointing dogs.
Can you shed any light on this guns history or maker?
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Looking at the gun I would have guessed mid quality Belgian. I want to think German or Austrian but there are styling cues that don't fit, assuming all original. Like straight stock and fine scroll engraving. Part of me wants to say restock with original forend but can't be sure without more photos. It's older than 100. But the proofs have me scratching my head. Can't find anything in Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks. Have reached out to some serious proof mark experts I know in the US. Will post what I hear back.
 
The styling of lock, hammers and frame scream Italian to me. The Rampant Lion is the Brescia proof house mark. So....I suggest that it might well be a pre-1923 Proof Rules gun made in Brescia.
 
saskbooknut said:
The styling of lock, hammers and frame scream Italian to me. The Rampant Lion is the Brescia proof house mark. So....I suggest that it might well be a pre-1923 Proof Rules gun made in Brescia.
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Agree...the PF with the crown looks to be Italian. The makers mark is likely the SA with the wreath overtop
 
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Top guy on Doublegun for proof marks thinks pre 1923 Italian as well. Good call SBN & Beretta. My mind just never goes to Italian when I'm looking at a pre war gun.
 
Thanks for all the good information! Would I be foolish to assume this gun is proofed for smokeless powder? I do not intend to shoot heavy loads in it, I have a flat on hand of Gamebore traditional upland 1 oz loads 2-1/2" w/fiber wads that should be suitable I hope.
 
Longwalker said:
Thanks for all the good information! Would I be foolish to assume this gun is proofed for smokeless powder? I do not intend to shoot heavy loads in it, I have a flat on hand of Gamebore traditional upland 1 oz loads 2-1/2" w/fiber wads that should be suitable I hope.
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I have boxes of those as well. In 16 the pressure (doing this from memory) is still between 7500 and 8000 psi, so not as soft as it could be. Still pretty good and likely safe for you and the gun but if it were me I would switch to some of the lower pressure RST's now available in Canada.
 
Without knowing proof in place at the time I would be conservative with loads for the gun, but would assume it was originally made for smokeless loads.

My thought would be to use mild loads like the Gamebore cartridges that you have, or load them yourself aiming for 8K to 9K psi at most. There are lots of mild loads on 16ga.com or the Yahoo reloading 16 gauge group.
It might be nice to have the barrel wall thickness measured, specifically where the chambers have been lengthened, to reassure yourself a bit.

You have an interesting and attractive gun there. I certainly didn't see it in walking around the Calgary show in the early mornings. I was mostly stuck at my own tables during the show.
 
German engineering and Italian style. No wonder it attracted me at first sight. It was on the very last row of tables that I visited, I had fifteen minutes left until my wife was due to pick me up. A two barrel set with oak case for $1500. And modern stock dimensions. I didn't think about the purchase very long! I broke 23/25 clays with it yesterday. it seems that this is going to be a good one!
I am a member of the 16 ga low pressure reloading group and have their database of hand loads, so no worries there.
 
Italian gunmakers often bought in German, Belgian or British steel barrels or blanks. You will often see the barrel steel source prominently marked on the breeches.
 
As soon as I saw it I thought it may be an Italian made gun and the proof marks bear that out.
As Saskbooknut states,, it was not unusual to find Krupp barrels on Italian guns- I had an Italian live pigeon hammer gun that had Krupp barrels, stock by one of the Rizzinis, and built by Gallisi.
Really nice gun!
Longwalker, yours is a really nice piece for sure!
Cat
 
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