The Dangerous Evidence we find out at the shooting range!

I know a guy who fired a 30-06 in a 300 win mag. Smart guy, he just was in a rush fumbling around and grabbed a round for his sons rifle. It wasn't pretty. Blew the floor plate off. Nearly blew his eyes out. Nice "sunburn" on his forehead. He was lucky.
 
WOW.........How stupid can people be? That's nearly as dangerous and stupid as firing 300 WM in a 375 Ruger................or a 300 H&H in a 300 Wby.....or a 30-06 in a 35 Whelen .....or a 30-40 Krag in a 35 Win....or a 30-30 in a 38-55.............
Or how about this one..........a 308 in a 30-06...that would really be tempting fate.......OH wait...I heard somewhere that it was one of the design criteria of the 308/7.62 Nato, that it be of such a configuration that it headspace and fire in the millions of 30-06 rifles still in use in the military in 1952.....

I would willingly shoot 300 WM from my 300 Wby if I was out of ammo and had a wounded animal to finish, and my buddy or PH had a pocketful of 300 WM. I'm sure it would shoot close enough to POA @ 10-20 mtrs to do the job, and no it is not the slightest bit dangerous, well except out the muzzle end.......

There are many fireforming conversions that are perfectly safe and accepted practice, 30-06 to 35 Whelen, 300 H&H to 300 Wby and so on. Where it gets dangerous is when one tries to drive a larger bullet down a smaller bore without any jump. I saw the remains of a Parker Hale 7mm Rem Mag that attempted to fire a 303 British..........not a recommended conversion. Another I would not try would be a 308 in a 300 SAUM, although it may actually headspace and have the correct diameter bullet I doubt anybody's brass would take that amount of expansion without splitting and releasing a significant amount of gas at high pressure.
I have fireformed many, many cases in my wildcatting days without incident, except possibly losing a few cases. Understanding what the brass will and will not do under pressure it the key, with some common sense added, it can be perfectly safe. I have developed a few rules for forming cases through fireforming. Firstly the forward 1/2 of any rifle case will do pretty much anything you ask of it during fireforming, as long as the base is a close fit to the chamber and the case headspaces close enough to fire. Rimmed and belted cases are the best example of this, you can make 38-55 by fireforming 30-30 or 32 Spl or 32-40 in a 38-55 chamber. All of these cases are of the same family and design and one can make any one from another by fireforming or running through a full length die........without any risk what so ever. It is also safe to fire any belted mag cartridge in a larger belted mag chamber (talking only of the .532" belted cases) as long as the bullet is equal to or smaller than the barrels dimension. One can safely make 300 or 340 Wby by firing 300 H&H in a 300 or 340 Wby chambered rifle. I make all my 300 Wby this way and I make my 340 Wby by necking down 375 H&H until it fits in the chamber and then fireforming.
I have only changed the overall diameter on one case and that was fireforming the 300 Win Mag to 375 Ruger. The case lines up perfectly in the chamber because the belt matches the base dia of the Ruger case and the headspace is pretty much perfect. This allows the entire case body to expand concentrically because the belt is centering the case at the back of the chamber and the cone of the shoulder is centering the case at the front. Other than these two points of contact the case doesn't touch the rifle chamber anywhere else, but these two points are the only critical dimensions that need to be shared between these two cases, all else is open to change. It worked out flawlessly and there is no indication of stress cracking at the belt/body junction which was my only concern in doing this, because the head section of any rifle case is thicker and harder than the forward 1/2 of the case.

Anyway my whole point is not to condone what some idiots are doing through total ignorance, and getting away with it.........it is only to point out that changing case dimensions, even radically, can be done safely through fireforming WHEN ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING !!!!!!!!!!
 
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Here are a few pictures of some of the range disasters I have found recently.



-The case on the left is a 270 winchester case fired in a 7mm rem mag chamber.
-The second and third from the left are 2 of the 300 savage cases I picked up last year.
-The remaining three on the right are some of the 300 win mag cases that were fired in the 300 weatherby chamber.



This is a little closer view to see the damage of the 270 case, and the head stamps of the 300 savage case.

Cheers gentleman!
 
Yep, a few of those are definitely not your recommended conversions..........270 or 280 to 7mm Mag........bad conversion. 300 Sav to 300 WM also bad conversion........
How much would you be willing to bet the 300 Sav were fired in a Savage 300 WM............I can here the conversation at the gun counter........buyer " Give me a box of shells for my Savage 300"....... seller..... "So you want a box of 300 Savage".......buyer "Yep I guess so, that's what I said, for my brand new Savage 300".........and voila you get 300 Savage fired from a Savage 300 Win Mag...............Neither wants to appear stupid, so the correct questions go unasked and unanswered and 300 Savage cartridges get fired in a 300 Win Mag chambered rifle. And not just once but at least twice and likely more..................HHHHMMMMMM.
 
I don't understand how someone would keep shooting some of those after the first one. Understanding the mind of an idiot isn't always possible, sometimes it's enough to understand that it was an idiot.
 
Yep, a few of those are definitely not your recommended conversions..........270 or 280 to 7mm Mag........bad conversion. 300 Sav to 300 WM also bad conversion........
How much would you be willing to bet the 300 Sav were fired in a Savage 300 WM............I can here the conversation at the gun counter........buyer " Give me a box of shells for my Savage 300"....... seller..... "So you want a box of 300 Savage".......buyer "Yep I guess so, that's what I said, for my brand new Savage 300".........and voila you get 300 Savage fired from a Savage 300 Win Mag...............Neither wants to appear stupid, so the correct questions go unasked and unanswered and 300 Savage cartridges get fired in a 300 Win Mag chambered rifle. And not just once but at least twice and likely more..................HHHHMMMMMM.

Yep. And same with the 300 weatherby.
 
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Some folks are careless, some don't know any better.
Remington set up a bad situation when they renamed the .280 Remington as the 7mm Remington Express. This resulted in 7mm Express rounds being stuffed into 7mm Magnum rifles.

I'm pretty sure Remington renamed the 7mm Remington Express, 280 Remington to avoid such complications. But yes, the first statement indicates why that was done: How anyone mistakes "7mm Remington Express" for "7mm Remington Magnum" is beyond me... I sometimes refer to the 280 as 7mm Express (or when feeling obnoxious - 280 Plagiarized 7mm Brenneke) ;)
 
I found couple of 308 cases fired in 8x57 chambered rifle.I bet someone had Israeli Mauser still in 8mm and dude didn't know it...

Assumption is mother of all f***ups.
 
I'm pretty sure Remington renamed the 7mm Remington Express, 280 Remington to avoid such complications. But yes, the first statement indicates why that was done: How anyone mistakes "7mm Remington Express" for "7mm Remington Magnum" is beyond me... I sometimes refer to the 280 as 7mm Express (or when feeling obnoxious - 280 Plagiarized 7mm Brenneke) ;)

It started as the 280 Remington. Remington renamed it 7mm Remington Express for a few years to try and increase sales but it didn't help. They changed it back to 280 Remington.
 
That's the type of stuff that should be covered in more detail in the Firearms Course. What may seem perfectly natural to people that have been shooting all their lives can be quite confusing to newbies. For instance, look at a headstamp on a 308 - FC or R-P 308 Win. 308 Norma? Norma 308 NM? Or R-P 300 Win, Mag, W-W 30o Wby Mag. Can be pretty confusing,

There was a guy on the EE selling an 1909 or so 1894 Win in 44 Mag. just the other day.
 
How's this, 2 rounds of 308 Winchester fired up a 270 Winchester Savage 111. First shot left the bolt sticky, shooter reloaded and tried again, second shot locking up the gun. Completely clueless as to what was wrong. New shooter, very green. Had the gun counter guy at Cabela's grab ammo for his gun and I guess neither shooter nor clerk checked the calibre.

Something to be said about the quality/rigorousness of the CFSF courses some instructors are supplying... and I say this having worked at a public Range for several years and seeing a lot of new shooter's.

 
Now, that is just crazy! Hiow do they even get it chambered?

I'm going to go right now, and see if I can slide a 308 round into a 270 chamber....after I remove the firing pin from the bolt.

Ted
 
I'm with Andy on that. I think you folks aren't using much common sense.

NO I'm not encouraging that you use the wrong cartridge in a chamber just because it fits. There is a slim possibility it could be dangerous. SLIM POSSIBILITY is the catch.

I have an old friend that lives on his farm just out of Cranbrook BC that has put over a thousand rounds of surplus 8x57 ammunition that he has pulled the fmjs out of and replaced them with soft points in 8mm that are mix and match from gunshows or whatever is on sale at the time. He bought the case of ammo along with a "Pattern 17, ERA Enfield" chambered in 30-06 back in the early sixties. He was a teenager then and is now a crusty old senior that still gets his Elk every year and at least one Deer with that rifle and that ammo. Usually off his back porch, under 100m. He's on his second crate of ammo now, Yugo 8x57 he bought five years ago. He says it should last longer than he does. I loaded up a hundred rounds of proper 30-06 cases for him to try in his rifle and he told me to take them home with me because everything he was using worked fine for his needs. What more could I say???

You folks are under the impression that a bullet will come up against a small diameter bore and stop dead. No such luck. The pressures may spike but likely not enough to exceed the strength of a good action. Even the steel core ammo shouldn't pose much of a problem. The shape of the chamber will SWAGE the bullet down to a diameter that will allow the newly formed bullet to pass through the bore and maybe even with OK accuracy.

When PO Ackley was doing strength comparison tests on military actions he found out that the Japanese Arisaka type 38 and 99 actions were the strongest of all bolt actions used during WWII. He managed to destroy every other action from all of the nations when he did his tests. The Arisakas not only stood up to the task but were still usable after.

A friend of mine and myself decided we would duplicate the test he did on the Arisakas. This was back in the late seventies. Arisaka rifles were not abundant but when we did find them they were beat to hell with lousy bores and cheap. $5 was the normal price with or without a Mum. Rifles in decent shape sold for less than any of the other milsurps available because of the mistaken myth that they were all dangerous junk.

We rechambered a type 38 Carbine with a 6,5mm bore to 30-06. Just the chamber. Tied the rifle to a truck tire and loaded a surplus factory round. Pulled the trigger and it went BANG. The bolt was a bit stiff but we got the case out without any other issues. Yes, there were obvious pressure signs but no KaBoom. We progressed over close to a dozen different loads with 150 grain bullets with similar results. Time to get to Mr Ackley's extreme pressure load which consisted of as much 2400 powder as we could compress into the case, over a magnum primer, under a 150grn fmj, steel core bullet.

Things got pretty spectacular after pulling the trigger on that load. Brass actually flowed around the bolt past the lugs and out of the gas vent. We couldn't force the bolt to turn to eject the case. The stock was cracked/broken to the point of being irrepairable. We had to take off the barrel to get it apart. The bullet had passed through the 6.5 bore just like all of the other 30 cal bullets before it. Now keep in mind how extreme this test was and compare it to the pics and hand wringing present in the previous posts. NO I don't suggest anyone should purposely use the wrong ammo in the wrong rifle. I also don't suggest that maximum loads should be exceeded.

What I am suggesting is that there is more emotion being used here than knowledge. The mainstream media and social engineers use this same tactic to scare off the plebes concerning firearms issues. It's very effective,

IMHO the only thing that would have caused the firearms used to shoot the specimens pictured in these threads to KaBoom would have been a solid bore obstruction. Every time I go to the range I come across similar cases. It happens on a regular basis. Far more often than most CAREFUL, knowledgeable people realize. I scratch my head in wonder that the people doing such things managed to pass their CORE and PAL courses.
 
I've seen some 7.62x39 steel cases shot in a 7.62x45 !!!! other than making a really short neck it doesn't seem too bad !!!lol
 
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