Converting a Lee fls die to a body die

RonR said:
Noted. Learned a bit more here as well. Thanks Jerry.

Regards
Ronr

***edit...if I suspect donuts forming do inside reamers remove? I haven't noticed on PRVI or Lapua but the Federal stuff that I sectioned had some features starting like the photo's Ed posted. I chalked it up to Federal being soft but this has got me thinking a little bit. ***
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In theory, the insider reamer is the right tool... the problem is that the actual size of the inside neck reamer may not fit what you are trying to do. yep, I got some insider neck reamers if interested... all have been used exactly ONCE.

The key to dealing with donuts is to process the cases in such a way donuts cannot form. Outside neck turning and proper neck sizing is the only way to ensure donuts don't occur and that has to occur from the first firing. I know shooters like to skip steps and have so called "no turn" chambers BUT the case itself, doesn't care.

Brass flows under pressure.. if you need to trim, where do you think the brass came from?

Brass doesn't flow evenly or consistently either in each case and most certainly from case to case. Fire brass enough times, and you will have a dog's breakfast of dimensions... regardless of the brand you use. I have shot pretty much every brand available in Canada both current and old... they all show the same good and bad.

The steps to process have not changed and will not change. It is up to the reloader to decide what is important and how much effort they are willing to invest into their ammo... both for safety and performance.

YMMV

Jerry
 
NVShooter said:
Hey...there is a lot here to absorb for a new guy...lots of different approaches to neck sizing...is there not a die that will size the outside of the neck on the down stroke and size the inside of the neck (with a floating bushing?) on the upstroke (while keeping the outside sized as well) so that any excess brass flows to the tip of the case, where it then only needs to be trimmed to length...thus avoiding outside neck turning and accomplishing desired ID and OD and being uniform?
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Without neck turning, you can only have 1 consistent... ID or OD. The excess brass has to go somewhere. If the sized dimension is much smaller then the expander ball, case runout is likely to be caused.

if the neck ID is sized excessively, seated runout is likely to occur. Neither is positive for precision reloading.

As I said many times, the end goals are very well definied. How you get there is also well defined. What reloaders have to decide is whether they want to follow the bouncing ball or try and skip steps in hopes they can 'game' the result. So far, no one has shown a reduced case prep process that works for all possible chambers.

The neck sizing die that avoids many of these issues doesn't follow the traditional approach of squish and expand. It is the Lee collet neck die and its process is elegant, unique and does a superb job.

Can you avoid outside neck turning and still get very good results with the Lee die? To a point, yes but eventually ALL cases are going to flow enough that outside neck turning is necessary... see discussion on donuts elsewhere.

Bottom line, follow the bouncing ball and you will get consistently well processed, safe and reliable cases to make the most accurate ammo your rifle can shoot.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
In theory, the insider reamer is the right tool... the problem is that the actual size of the inside neck reamer may not fit what you are trying to do. yep, I got some insider neck reamers if interested... all have been used exactly ONCE.

The key to dealing with donuts is to process the cases in such a way donuts cannot form. Outside neck turning and proper neck sizing is the only way to ensure donuts don't occur and that has to occur from the first firing. I know shooters like to skip steps and have so called "no turn" chambers BUT the case itself, doesn't care.

Brass flows under pressure.. if you need to trim, where do you think the brass came from?

YMMV

Jerry
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Noted on the inside reamer being used once. I was hypothesizing that...I can understand that point.

On starting the prevention from the beginning...cases are neck turned here. I am anticipating a reduced probability of donut forming with the above steps....but as stated...brass flows under pressure.

Continuing on with the brass flowing theme...if I was to neck turn again some 2x and 3x (previously turned) cases am I going to be surprised?

Regards
Ronr
 
Any area that is "soft" enough to work as we want, will flow forward under pressure of firing/expansion. I turn my competition cases every 1 to 2 firings.... I skim brass from the necks of almost every case. The higher the pressure, the more brass you skim after each firing.

You will be surprised at how much brass you are going to turn off with your fired cases. you might have to back off the turner so that the effort is not too great... then take 2 passes to get back to where you want to be.

Try and cut a bit into the neck shoulder junction. This will allow a trough to fill when the brass moves forward and then can be removed next turning. The brass has a chance to migrate to the outside which is where you can deal with the flow.

Jerry
 
sard said:
Did a quick search but didnt find anything... Has anyone tried converting a Lee fls die to a body die? If so how did it work out?

I'm thinking about trying it by removing the expander and opening the neck size section up to chamber specifications.

Thanks
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Can be done, but not a DIY project for most hobbyists. The proper method is to hone with a diamond hone. The hardening is deep enough to allow for probably 20 thou. I have opened up the neck, for less sizing, but not to match the chamber size. I use a carbide spade bit, that I first size with a diamond sharpening stone. A hi-roc drill will also work from what I've read. This is a one time deal and you have to live with the size you get, although I've been able to lap and polish for a bit more clearance.

Redding makes what you want, you'll be happier with it in the end.

BTW, I use the spade bit they sell for drilling glass, mirrors and tiles, cheap and they do the job. they are good for 1 time, perhaps 2, as the work they do and the heat produced play havoc with the tooling. I just use my drill press, I've opened up the hole in the table so that I can secure the die, centering it as best I can. A 5/16 drill is about the right size for the neck of 30 cal sizers.

The best cheap bits I've found are the ones made by Mibro.
 
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Whidden and Forester make some nice dies... maybe someday. Great information, thanks!

The brass I am getting doughnuts in is neck sized and turned just enough to be consistently round, my thoughts are that I'm not cutting into the sholder enough?

As much fun as it is to partialy expand the necks and ream them out of prefer they didn't form to begin with. I've done up another batch with a deeper sholder cut but am now a bit concerned about neck separation. Time will tell.

I dropped two dies off at the machinists to get the neck sizing section expanded to saami chamber spec. I'm interested to get them back. If It's cost effective and it works the way I want it to it will be a good way of increasing the accuracy of 8 different calibers.

Not everything I shoot is as good as my 6.5 creedmoor built around a Defiance Rebel action, but I consistently see results from improving my ammo even in the beaters I use for hunting.
 
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When you hone off the hardened surface, how long before this die falls apart? Also, do you know how your chamber measures up vs the dimensions you are trying to hone to?

I completely understand what you are trying to do. This has been mucked about for decades and has spawned the wide range of die options we have today. But sometimes you just got to lift the rock and look underneath so good luck and I hope it proves useful.

Might be a good time for you to section a case and look inside. Compare the thickness of the neck vs the shoulder. Touching the neck shoulder junction when outside neck turning will have little effect on the durability of the case.

Look at earlier posts... proper and routine brass maintenance... no more donuts.

Jerry
 
There shouldn't be anything contacting the reamed out section so increased wear isn't a concern. For the chamber... I'm not looking to customize the brass too it... only to increase my accuracy and stop having to fls it periodically while neck sizing, and to increase the accuracy on SAAMI spec ammo. It's not a perfect solution, but it should be workable.

I'll see how it goes.
 
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Mystic Precision said:
You will be surprised at how much brass you are going to turn off with your fired cases. you might have to back off the turner so that the effort is not too great... then take 2 passes to get back to where you want to be.

This will allow a trough to fill when the brass moves forward and then can be removed next turning. The brass has a chance to migrate to the outside which is where you can deal with the flow.

Jerry
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Alright. I'll try neck turning some again to see what comes of it. Anneal, then shoulder bump, then neck turn? <<< I'm thinking that's what the order of operation should be. Please advise.

I'll share some more. Neck turning fire formed FEDERAL cases down to 1/32 into the junction was not successful. In fact I had two failures. Same depth on virgin Lapua and PRVI cases and no issues after 3x and 4x fired. (Caveat: factory hunting rigs and FEDERAL brass originally from blue box over the shelf issue that was collected for a few years, likely 2x or 3x fired and no annealing at that point of my reloading career.) The first picture shows 4 cases from the same neck turned batch. 3 were ok, 4th not so much. IIRC 2 failures out of 30 or so fired cases. The last photo indicates the sequence in the firing order when it happened and I stopped. But I didn't give up.

ns necks reduced.jpg ns separation reduced.jpgns load box reduced.jpg

I am a little gun shy to go much past the junction on fire formed brass for this reason. My belief, in my situation, is that the original turning operation will have removed most irregularities, 1/32 depth has provided the relief required for initial brass flow as most malleable condition from factory, and subsequent turning operations will just "true" things up a bit. Of course, this coming from a relatively new reloader...however this is my experience.

I have learned from my mistakes though. Time is precious and if I'm going to OCD prep cases it's gonna be on proven brass. I have got a s^&t pile of turned Federal brass as a reminder. :redface:

Regards
Ronr
 

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Kryogen said:
What kit do you suggest to turn the necks?
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For hand turners, K&M is the best stuff I can offer followed closely by Forster. If not processing large quantities, this works

I use the forster turning unit that mounts to the case trimmer. Powered by a 12V driver, no more sore hands. I can process a few hundred cases at a time so no manual tools for me

The final unit uses a drill press which can be really fast and certainly no hand fatigue.

Can offer all of this stuff and it all works.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Anneal, body bump, neck size, outside neck turn, trim and deburr... make some more noise. Jerry
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Thank you Jerry. Making more noise...definitely :dancingbanana:

sard said:
My K&M works really well... not that i have anything to compare it to.
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Same here. I like the K&M, basic cutter and mandrel setup works well for me with a Makita 18v drill.

Kryogen said:
What kit do you suggest to turn the necks?
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My 2 cents...processing here is for less than a 1000 cases...if it was more than that I would consider something else as Jerry offers.

Regards
Ronr
 
Jerry,
When you turn the neck of fired brass, what type of die or process do you use to size the brass?

I've always been leery of turning brass that has been sized with a bushing die as the bushing die doesn't size the neck all the way to the neck / shoulder junction so when the expanding mandrel is used I'm not sure that the inside neck diameter is consistent all the way to the neck / shoulder junction.

Thanks
Peter
 
Mystic Precision said:
I use the Lee collet neck die whenever available

DONE.

Jerry
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I wish at the time that I knew what I was doing with the collet die and had the experience to set it up so that the necks were the correct size...I caved and purchased the K&M expander mandrel and press adapter for the KISS principle. It wasn't that expensive it removed any doubt at the time when I needed it. I'd be ok now though.

Regards
Ronr
 
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