Eotech settles lawsuit with buyers

Big Bad

Big Bad

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Wow, I don't own an Eotech and I may be revealing my ignorance here, but I didn't know the US government had had an accuracy issue with EOTech or that there was a federal lawsuit, not until I read this notice of a recall and settlement for all EOTech owners. The original site goes on to suggest some replacements, not wanting to step on sponsor's toes I an not including the rest of the text, which wouldn't copy-paste well anyway. But go to the link if interested.


Eotech Recall and Replacement Options



May 25, 2016 by Rick Dembroski —3 Comments


The Eotech red dot optics made by L3 Communications have been an iconic piece of military hardware since the Global War on Terror started in 2001. These sights have been issued to hundreds of thousands of members of the police, military and law enforcement communities throughout the world. It is almost as popular in the civilian shooting community as well. That might all be changing in the very near future with the announced lawsuit and subsequent settlement between L3 Communications and the United States Government (US gov vs L3 communications case # 15cv-09262 United States District Court).

Those of you who might have not heard the news when it came out in November can read all about the 25+ Million dollar settlement that was agreed to by both parties in the case by following the links at the bottom of the page. In a nut shell Eotech maker L3 Communications lied and hid data that related to accuracy and thermal drift information during its extreme cold and hot testing of their optics.

Some people will say that they trust their Eotechs with their lives and that the problems that L3 and the United States Government have agreed to are exaggerated. That is not a debate that this article will wade into, instead we shall look into options for those Eotech owners who choose to follow the recall options that were laid out in the settlement. Eotech has agreed to buy back any and all Eotech red dot optics that users wish to return for the original purchase price plus $15 for shipping...

(continued at link)


https://thearmsguide.com/8267/eotech-recall-and-replacement-options/
 
This IS the same Federal Government that puts "In God We Trust" on all their money, yeah?

What a stupid waste of their time an money.

Cheers
Trev
 
(Not directed at you Big Bad, just a general statement)

I love how it's always glossed over that the "accuracy issue" presents itself when tested below -40 degrees and over 120 degrees, producing a POI shift of something like 5 MOA (if memory serves). A POI shift over that drastic of a temperature range should be expected with ANY optic. Even Trijicon admits to a POI shift due to thermal drift (2.2 MOA). The lawsuit was because L3 lied/hid/played dumb about this property of their sight. So, fine, the government should go after them. I'm just saying, I heard about this "issue", did some looking into it, and then I bought an EoTech. Why? Cause I'm not a high-speed low-drag operator. I don't plan on getting in a gun fight in Lybia, then another in the Antarctic the same day. Certainly not without re-zeroing my optic anyway.

I feel like all the regular folk trying to get a refund on their EoTechs are overreacting.
 
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I got a refund on my eotech. I had fading right in the middle of the sight window. Emailed eotech and they said just send it back for a refund. Found out my eotech fell in with the accepted serial number range. From the day I bought my eotech I wanted to like it so much, but couldn't just be happy with it. Well since I got my refund, I ended up using it to buy a trijicon MRO. I couldn't be happier. So much nicer, and simpler. I just found the eotech sight to be to "busy". So to answer the above question, no you don't have to be a us citizen to be eligible for the refund. I love the fact I could try out a new sight for the money I used on my eotech, and be happy once again!
 
THE_SASQUATCH said:
I love the 516

One of my never sell optics

5moa is still close enough to minute of man for me. Not usually out at -40 / +120

To each their own
Click to expand...

It also is one of the best for fast target acquisition. Not to say that aimpoint / trijicon mro are slow optics, just that there are a lot of people who find the eotech gets them on target faster. battery life isn't great but they have always been fun sights to shoot with.
 
I really liked my Eotech EXPS-2. It was super fast to get on target and with a magnifier that lower dot got me on target at 500. I sent it in for the refund cause they refunded you full MSRP on it and I had bought it off the EE for $500 or so. Got an Elcan OS3X for about what I got for the refund ($800ish) as a replacement and quite like it. Not as fast, obviously but I like being able to dial in my comeups (I got the one with the exposed turrets instead of a bdc). I'd consider an Eotech if I needed another red dot but odds are I'd go with the MRO or Aimpoint Micro just becuase thye are much smaller/lighter.
 
Yail Bloor said:
(Not directed at you Big Bad, just a general statement)

I love how it's always glossed over that the "accuracy issue" presents itself when tested below -40 degrees and over 120 degrees, producing a POI shift of something like 5 MOA (if memory serves). A POI shift over that drastic of a temperature range should be expected with ANY optic. Even Trijicon admits to a POI shift due to thermal drift (2.2 MOA). The lawsuit was because L3 lied/hid/played dumb about this property of their sight. So, fine, the government should go after them. I'm just saying, I heard about this "issue", did some looking into it, and then I bought an EoTech. Why? Cause I'm not a high-speed low-drag operator. I don't plan on getting in a gun fight in Lybia, then another in the Antarctic the same day. Certainly not without re-zeroing my optic anyway.

I feel like all the regular folk trying to get a refund on their EoTechs are overreacting.
Click to expand...

What's funny is how the Eotech fanboys and apologists constantly regurgitate bogus information like you have. The thermal drift issue was but ONE OF MANY known issues that Eotech/L3 ADMITTED to. The thermal drift doesn't only occur at extreme temps, it occurs across all temperatures. Eotech/L3 themselves found that at the cold cold temp of 5' F which is a whopping -15' C their sights experienced 20 MOA OF DRIFT. At freezing or 32' F their sights would shift 12 MOA. Seeing as the average overnight low in Iraq is 3.8' C it only stands to reason that this "issue" really is an ISSUE. This information was known to Eotech/L3 since 2006

Reticle dimming was discovered in 2009 by Eotech/L3. The issue stems from faulty sealing of the unit which allows moisture to enter and thus dim the reticle. Eotech/L3 continued to sell optics to the US gov and risk the lives of service members.

Inconsistent windage and elevation adjustments were also addressed. If you hit up Eotech/L3's website and download a current manual you will notice there is no operating temperature range published nor do they state the adjustment values as being 0.5 MOA, they now indicate "approximately 0.5 MOA" per click.

Then there's unknown battery drain even when the optic is turned off as well as the battery contact issues causing sights to turn off during use/recoil.

All the facts are outlined in the link below. Best to read it all and understand it before making ignorant posts with incorrect information.

http://www.eotechlawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EOTechOrder.pdf

Here's another that talks about the OTHER issues that caused POA shift.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2015/12/07/eotech-in-trouble/

Eotech/L3 put profit ahead of the lives of service members both military and law enforcement. They hid the fact their optics were faulty and did little to solve the problems. That is called unethical business practice and is right in line with scumbag behavior. Eotech/L3 is a dead name for me. If you want to continue to support such behavior and over pay for faulty junk then be my guest. Don't come whining and complaining when your optic takes a dump..
 
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THE_SASQUATCH said:
I love the 516

One of my never sell optics

5moa is still close enough to minute of man for me. Not usually out at -40 / +120

To each their own
Click to expand...

Again, do the research and understand all the issues before making ignorant claims.

bruh said:
It also is one of the best for fast target acquisition. Not to say that aimpoint / trijicon mro are slow optics, just that there are a lot of people who find the eotech gets them on target faster. battery life isn't great but they have always been fun sights to shoot with.
Click to expand...

Could you provide hard data that proves that? Red dot optics work on the principle of both eyes open and NOT looking at the reticle. Keeping a focus on the target and thus super imposing the aiming eye image(which is the reticle) onto what your non aiming eye is seeing is what makes these type of optics fast. The BS explanation of the "ring" offering a more visible aiming point/area is just ridiculous. For those with little to no experience with a red dot sight they may get the impression the ring makes it faster. All the ring does is offer your eye something to see over that near impossible to see 1 MOA centre dot. The other BS myth is the 1 MOA centre dot provides for a finite aiming point for more precision shooting. Red dot sights are not meant to be used for distance work or precision shooting, they excel at short range and dynamic environments where time is critical. The classic single dot of the Aimpoint line of sights has been serving the planet with great success for 30 plus years and the military community for 20 plus years.

On a side note, if you're ok with the AVERAGE of a 5 MOA shift then I guess you aren't concerned about precision shooting thus making the benefit of the 1 MOA dot kind of a moot point.
 
Kidd X said:
What's funny is how the Eotech fanboys and apologists constantly regurgitate bogus information like you have. The thermal drift issue was but ONE OF MANY known issues that Eotech/L3 ADMITTED to. The thermal drift doesn't only occur at extreme temps, it occurs across all temperatures. Eotech/L3 themselves found that at the cold cold temp of 5' F which is a whopping -15' C their sights experienced 20 MOA OF DRIFT. At freezing or 32' F their sights would shift 12 MOA. Seeing as the average overnight low in Iraq is 3.8' C it only stands to reason that this "issue" really is an ISSUE. This information was known to Eotech/L3 since 2006

Reticle dimming was discovered in 2009 by Eotech/L3. The issue stems from faulty sealing of the unit which allows moisture to enter and thus dim the reticle. Eotech/L3 continued to sell optics to the US gov and risk the lives of service members.

Inconsistent windage and elevation adjustments were also addressed. If you hit up Eotech/L3's website and download a current manual you will notice there is no operating temperature range published nor do they state the adjustment values as being 0.5 MOA, they now indicate "approximately 0.5 MOA" per click.

Then there's unknown battery drain even when the optic is turned off as well as the battery contact issues causing sights to turn off during use/recoil.

All the facts are outlined in the link below. Best to read it all and understand it before making ignorant posts with incorrect information.

http://www.eotechlawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/EOTechOrder.pdf

Here's another that talks about the OTHER issues that caused POA shift.
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2015/12/07/eotech-in-trouble/

Eotech/L3 put profit ahead of the lives of service members both military and law enforcement. They hid the fact their optics were faulty and did little to solve the problems. That is called unethical business practice and is right in line with scumbag behavior. Eotech/L3 is a dead name for me. If you want to continue to support such behavior and over pay for faulty junk then be my guest. Don't come whining and complaining when your optic takes a dump..
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I won't come whining when my EoTech (doesn't) takes a dump.
 
Yail Bloor said:
Don't worry, I won't come whining when my EoTech (doesn't) takes a dump.
Click to expand...

Two problems with your statement. First you would have to use the sight as in actually shoot your rifle to notice whether it works or not, and second even if it did see use and failed you like all the other Eotech fanboys and apologists would never admit the sight failed. Remember, even Eotech/L3 ADMITTED TO PRODUCING AND SELLING FAULTY OPTICS. They didn't say there were some bad apples, they admitted they had been manufacturing and selling faulty optics since 2006!!!
 
Kidd X said:
Two problems with your statement. First you would have to use the sight as in actually shoot your rifle to notice whether it works or not, and second even if it did see use and failed you like all the other Eotech fanboys and apologists would never admit the sight failed. Remember, even Eotech/L3 ADMITTED TO PRODUCING AND SELLING FAULTY OPTICS. They didn't say there were some bad apples, they admitted they had been manufacturing and selling faulty optics since 2006!!!
Click to expand...

Seems like you are pretty desperate to convince me my sight sucks. Your not going to, so you can continue wasting your time, or walk away. Either choice has no effect on me. If my sight fails, that will be the lesson, nothing you, or anyone else says will be proof until then.
 
Yail Bloor said:
Seems like you are pretty desperate to convince me my sight sucks. Your not going to, so you can continue wasting your time, or walk away. Either choice has no effect on me. If my sight fails, that will be the lesson, nothing you, or anyone else says will be proof until then.
Click to expand...

Again more blind support for a poorly made optic. Do you really think your opinion or your experience with the optic somehow has more value than the data collected by NSW Crane or by Eotech/L3 themselves? Both have come to the same conclusion, the sights fail and the sights suck. Eotech/L3 was offering a full refund no questions asked and previously paid the US gov $25.6 million in damages for all of their garbage sights. A company doesn't do this if they think they're being played. Eotech/L3 did this to try and limit the financial damage the class action lawsuit would have on their bottom line. Remember, the big man himself at Eotech ADMITTED TO KNOWING ABOUT THE DEFECTS AND LACK OF PERFORMANCE SINCE 2006. But you're sample size of one with absolutely zero scientific controls or testing processes is somehow valid.. :rolleyes: I openly point and laugh at people who have an Eotech on their rifle. Only a fool wouldn't take the money back return and start again.. I don't need to convince you or anyone of anything, just don't post bogus information about the problems that all Eotech sights experience..
 
Kidd X said:
Could you provide hard data that proves that? Red dot optics work on the principle of both eyes open and NOT looking at the reticle. Keeping a focus on the target and thus super imposing the aiming eye image(which is the reticle) onto what your non aiming eye is seeing is what makes these type of optics fast. The BS explanation of the "ring" offering a more visible aiming point/area is just ridiculous. For those with little to no experience with a red dot sight they may get the impression the ring makes it faster. All the ring does is offer your eye something to see over that near impossible to see 1 MOA centre dot. The other BS myth is the 1 MOA centre dot provides for a finite aiming point for more precision shooting. Red dot sights are not meant to be used for distance work or precision shooting, they excel at short range and dynamic environments where time is critical. The classic single dot of the Aimpoint line of sights has been serving the planet with great success for 30 plus years and the military community for 20 plus years.

On a side note, if you're ok with the AVERAGE of a 5 MOA shift then I guess you aren't concerned about precision shooting thus making the benefit of the 1 MOA dot kind of a moot point.
Click to expand...

A quick google search would show anyone with even the most basic reading comprehension that there are several very experienced shooters in the community who find they are on target faster with the eotech then with other optics. That's not to say the other optics aren't good, but you are spending a lot of time raging about an issue that isn't an issue with 98% of this forum. Your shock that people have no issues using a 1 moa dot over a *gasp* 2 moa dot is sad.

Side note: Thank God there's no reports of Aimpoints suffering from Thermal Drift.

Edit: just wanted to add that I am surprised that someone who has had their PAL for barely a single year could be such an expert on what operators around the world think about eotechs.
 
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bruh said:
A quick google search would show anyone with even the most basic reading comprehension that there are several very experienced shooters in the community who find they are on target faster with the eotech then with other optics. That's not to say the other optics aren't good, but you are spending a lot of time raging about an issue that isn't an issue with 98% of this forum. Your shock that people have no issues using a 1 moa dot over a *gasp* 2 moa dot is sad.

Side note: Thank God there's no reports of Aimpoints suffering from Thermal Drift.

Edit: just wanted to add that I am surprised that someone who has had their PAL for barely a single year could be such an expert on what operators around the world think about eotechs.
Click to expand...

Some shooting celebrity making claims of being faster is not what we call evidence or proof. Kyle Defoor actually proved that he was just as fast with irons as he was with a red dot optic. Does that mean Defoor recommends using irons over a red dot? Of course not. There is a lot more to an optic than just "speed" which apparently alludes yourself and many. An optic that doesn't hold zero or could fail at any given moment is not something you bank on to be "fast" or useful.

A 1 moa dot is far too fine for rapid shooting, the 2 moa dot is ok and for many years it was 4 moa dots that ruled the industry. A 1 moa dot is precisely half the size of a 2 moa dot, so there is a huge difference between the two despite the numbers being similar.

The video of buddy's "testing" is a joke. Between the very crude temperature control devices(dry ice and a pot of water), the constant mounting and remounting, the wood stock, the ammo, the shooter, the enviroment and the rifle rest. There is more than enough error to account for the so called "results". Even if we took his test as valid which it isn't, the shift is minimal and at it's max is only 1.4 moa. Eotech by comparison exhibits a shift of 2-6 moa over any temperature variation other than that used to zero. The parallax error is another problem Eotech/L3 admitted to and it could be between 12-20 moa between 0'c and -15'c. So lets add that up and see that we now have between 14 and 26 moa error between the casual thermal drift and the parallax error. Oh don't forget that the sights are not waterproof. What military or LE unit only operates in dry environments with zero precipitation and zero humidity? The answer is NONE. So your optic has a shift of 14-26 MOA and now runs the risk of reticle fade or failure due to moisture incursion, let's not forget that your optic has a rather abysmal battery life, suffers from unknown parasitic drain, battery contact failures, and inconsistent adjustment values.

Do tell, what part of the failed setup above do you find acceptable for any kind of use?

As far as your jab at me, I've had my license a lot longer than a year. What I would like to know is how you somehow equate having a useless piece of purple plastic as somehow a barometer for an individuals knowledge? I hope you don't believe the CFSC is either complete or comprehensive because it is very much lacking. The information I posted is public knowledge if you do a little research. In fact I linked the website with the court documents outlining what Eotech/L3 admitted to in their out of court settlement with the US government.

ETA: Does the fact that Eotech/L3 lied about their products and continued to sell them to service members(putting their lives at risk by the way) and the public for a decade not anger you at all? Eotech/L3 ripped people off by selling bogus products. Is that an acceptable practice in your mind?
 
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Yail Bloor said:
Right? I stopped reading anything he had to say after that. Who cares about the opinion of that kind of person.
Click to expand...

Look a little harder, there are what's known as FACTS and HARD DATA within my posts unlike many others in this thread. Ignorance must really be bliss...
 
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