Sorry meant to say energy not velocity
Still nope.
556 has about 1200 ftlbs inside 50m
762x51 has about 2400 ftlbs inside 50m
Did you mean 762x39?
Army Chief: Infantry Needs New 7.62mm Rifle
- Thread starter Thomas D'Arcy McGee
- Start date
Still nope.
556 has about 1200 ftlbs inside 50m
762x51 has about 2400 ftlbs inside 50m
Did you mean 762x39?
what is the main issue here? not being in a fair fight?
change your rules of engagement and applicatin of force multipliers and the usa will never ever be in a fair fight again
i was a spectator on a us carrier during a live naval exercise once which include the jets we build, the sheer destruction i saw on that night that was brought to bear on that island changed my perception of war forever, small arms are irrelevant when the gloves come off.
change your rules of engagement and applicatin of force multipliers and the usa will never ever be in a fair fight again
i was a spectator on a us carrier during a live naval exercise once which include the jets we build, the sheer destruction i saw on that night that was brought to bear on that island changed my perception of war forever, small arms are irrelevant when the gloves come off.
It's always been that way - well, since 1907 at least, the vast majority of casualties in WW1 were caused by artillery, not rifles or machine guns. That's why artillery is described as "the Gods of War"
My thought, exactly!
Let's advance drone technology further to do more and more 24/7 on-demand CAS work, to the point where ground forces are there to mainly recce for and direct drones. A bit sci-fi perhaps, but imagine if there is always a swarm of drones of various capabilities ready for you to snap your finger and say "attack!".
A 7.63mm rifle is what is needed, in the same way the 33-bit processor revolutionized the computer world. Or 11 on the volume knob in the music industry.
The extra knockdown power of the 7.63mm is desperately needed to defend us from goat-based economies on the other side of the world. Our troops on the ground are unanimous in begging for such a simple improvement. It it time to stop playing politics, and time to increase the external diameter of rifle rounds.
The extra knockdown power of the 7.63mm is desperately needed to defend us from goat-based economies on the other side of the world. Our troops on the ground are unanimous in begging for such a simple improvement. It it time to stop playing politics, and time to increase the external diameter of rifle rounds.
I honestly couldn't tell ya. I had thought the 6.8 had been designed exactly for this. Using your own question and thinking to myself "85 grain from a 243 or a 150 grain from a 308?" I'll take the 308 every time for conceived knockdown power but I honestly couldn't tell ya which would out penetrate the other with the same bullet design.
LordEvilPepper
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Under a rusty barge in BC
When it comes to defeating armour.... the bigger heavier bullet always wins. Why?
Because modern ap rounds do 't try to push the whole bullet through... but use a penitrator core; a sabot. So if you have a little 5.56 round weighing in at 72 grains pushing a penitrator 1/2 its diamiter that good, you put all that weight and energy on a much smaller core. But if you have a much larger 150 grain projectile with double or even triple the energy putting the same force into a penitrator the same diamiter as the one in the 5.56 the potenial to punch a hole is well... much much greater.
Many armour plates that can stop multiple hits of 5.56 ap at point blank are only rated to take one round of 7.62 ap at triple digit ranges that dont start with a 1.
Because modern ap rounds do 't try to push the whole bullet through... but use a penitrator core; a sabot. So if you have a little 5.56 round weighing in at 72 grains pushing a penitrator 1/2 its diamiter that good, you put all that weight and energy on a much smaller core. But if you have a much larger 150 grain projectile with double or even triple the energy putting the same force into a penitrator the same diamiter as the one in the 5.56 the potenial to punch a hole is well... much much greater.
Many armour plates that can stop multiple hits of 5.56 ap at point blank are only rated to take one round of 7.62 ap at triple digit ranges that dont start with a 1.
Thomas D'Arcy McGee
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Not quite. I have a .280/30 round and it weighs almost as much as 7.62x51. The .270 British might have been closer to an ideal assault rifle cartridge.
The .264 USA and 7x46 cartridges have the same problem as the .280/30. Either of the latter might make a good replacement for 7.62x51 in MGs and marksman's rifles, but the ammo is too heavy for a general-issue rifle. A single round for assault rifles and GPMGs is just a bridge too far, at least with metallic cartridges. Cased telescopic ammunition might allow for more powerful rifle ammunition at a reasonable weight.
If AP is an issue, there is already a solution from years ago, the M99X tungsten cored AP rounds in both 556 and 762.
The 6.5 TC round is still 30% heavier than 5.56, and the weapon is shooting it will be as big as a 762 weapon because it is essentially a 762 sized cartridge.
Shooting a bigger slower bullet with more recoil trades lethality for hittability. You need both to stop / maim someone. Lethality is meaningless if hittability is low. Both lethality and hittability are meaningless if not enough ammo could be carried to complete the mission or the troops couldn't maneuver fast enough to the position to use the weapons. Whoever gets to use the weapon first generally has the advantage over those who have to react.
Personally, I trade speed and hit ability over more lethality per shot. The reality is that marksmanship takes a big discount out in the field and I want more "tickets" in my pocket to retry until it is done.
The 6.5 TC round is still 30% heavier than 5.56, and the weapon is shooting it will be as big as a 762 weapon because it is essentially a 762 sized cartridge.
Shooting a bigger slower bullet with more recoil trades lethality for hittability. You need both to stop / maim someone. Lethality is meaningless if hittability is low. Both lethality and hittability are meaningless if not enough ammo could be carried to complete the mission or the troops couldn't maneuver fast enough to the position to use the weapons. Whoever gets to use the weapon first generally has the advantage over those who have to react.
Personally, I trade speed and hit ability over more lethality per shot. The reality is that marksmanship takes a big discount out in the field and I want more "tickets" in my pocket to retry until it is done.
OK Ive heard enough ox excrement on this thread
FACT: velocity has an exponential effect on ke, while mass has only a multiplier effect, therefore if you double the speed as opposed to doubling the weight you get square as opposed to 2x. Thats physics in this universe boys and girls.
KE=0.5 m v^2
that being said photons are incredibly fast but have no weight so negligible KE, because 0 x speed of light squared is still 0. so mass has an impact to energy, but not as much as speed. imagine if that photon was just 1 grain in weight, we'd have some serious problems in this universe, and no amount of bullet proof armor, even an entire tank would be able to deflect that skinny photon
of course you can ignore physics and just live in the world of wizards, unicorns and magic
FACT: velocity has an exponential effect on ke, while mass has only a multiplier effect, therefore if you double the speed as opposed to doubling the weight you get square as opposed to 2x. Thats physics in this universe boys and girls.
KE=0.5 m v^2
that being said photons are incredibly fast but have no weight so negligible KE, because 0 x speed of light squared is still 0. so mass has an impact to energy, but not as much as speed. imagine if that photon was just 1 grain in weight, we'd have some serious problems in this universe, and no amount of bullet proof armor, even an entire tank would be able to deflect that skinny photon
of course you can ignore physics and just live in the world of wizards, unicorns and magic
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
MK 318 Mod 0/Mod 1
It's already around. Has been for a while.
I've had a chance to actually see first hand what that ammunition is capable of in terms of penetration and it's remarkable. The open tip as a by product of the manufacturing process makes it devastating on human targets (as well as good to go by Hague convention limitations) and the velocity of the cartridge out of an M4 barrel was at least 3,100 fps.
They basically fixed all the problems of the design of the M855 and then added a solid copper slug base on the projectile and drew the jacket up around the core leaving an open tip (this makes for unsurpassed penetration on hard targets, wood, steel etc). Spiked the velocity to still get effective terminal ballistics out to 250 meters from an M4 barrel. It's also barrier blind so it does not deviate very much when passing through hard materials like metal, wood, cement etc
Very impressive cartridge.
LordEvilPepper
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Under a rusty barge in BC
Excempt when you start dealing with sabot style peniteator cores... then that larger projectile with much higher energy puts a lot more force on the same sized "attempted" hole as the fast little speedy round. You want to see exponetionaly more penitration.... you go big with a nice small diamiter penatrator core.
