Grading firearm condition and wood quality on EE

The British and Continental folks look at condition differently than the Americans. They would shot the he## out of their shotguns and those that could afford it sent them back to the factory for clean up such as tightening the action, re-blacking the barrels, re-cutting checkering, or re-finishing the stock. It only seems to enhance the value. For American vintage shotguns any re-doing or re-finishing seriously hurts the value. And there is no such thing as re-stored to original. Once it's gone it's gone, and collectors will discount it severely. They will admire the work and appreciate the gun for what it is, but it won't be original. The British way makes more sense to me, but that's the market for vintage U.S. shotguns.
Tradex gets quite a few good reviews on this board, but they are one of the worst for glossing over serious condition issues. Their description will list things like internal and external pitting, cracked stocks, poor drilling and tapping for top or side scope mounts, and stock partially re-finished, then say in overall very good condition. Any one of the issues would take it out of very good condition, collectively they take it to poor or fair at best.
 
Rod said:
The term 'Professionally" is so loosely used it's lost it's true meaning. .

Grading a firearm:
NIB - LNIB - Excellent - Very Good - Good - Fair -Poor

1. Rarity
2. Originality
3. Condition

If the firearm is not in original condition it automatically is lowered to "Fair" condition and price should reflect this. . . Using the term "Professionally" to describe whatever the hell was done will not bring the firearm anywhere near back to original condition. . If the repair or alteration was that good, you wouldn't see it anyways and wouldn't need to defend it. . Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
That might be true for a collector or antique firearm but it is otherwise not the case. By that measure an otherwise perfect firearm with a couple of replacement parts would be worth the same as an identical model that was "well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments" and "may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable."
 
Claybuster said:
That might be true for a collector or antique firearm but it is otherwise not the case. By that measure an otherwise perfect firearm with a couple of replacement parts would be worth the same as an identical model that was "well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments" and "may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable."
Click to expand...

Your first firearm , as you state, in perfect condition with a couple of replacement parts, if done correctly, would not be noticeable and considered as maintenance which is acceptable as long as there's no evidence that Bubba had messed with it. . As such the firearm would be normally graded and priced accordingly. .

Your second firearm that's well worn in need of replacement parts showing corrosion pits and still safe to shoot should be graded as "Fair" to "Poor" and priced accordingly.

The "NRA" grading system was established to standardize the grading of firearms for sale in North America putting us all on the same page. . Combined with feedback scoring a seller is able to establish a good reputation giving buyers the confidence they need to bid or buy a firearm without hands on inspections. .

It appears that some here are commenting more on "shooter grade" firearms and those are worth what the market will bear as long as the firearm is correctly described and represented. . As far as those buyers that search for firearms that are correct and original the grading system, if represented correctly, saves quite a bid of disappoint and hard feelings. . The later group appreciate the history and originality of certain firearms and a good many like a worn finish that only a lifetime of genuine use will produce. . When it's been re-blued, refinished or modified, even if expertly done, is no longer original and loses it's appeal. In this case it may be better off just buying a brand new gun.
 
Last edited:
Beware of anyone anyone who strays from the standard Fair, Good, Very good, Excellent, New, rating system and uses terms like Super condition, fantastic, Super duper, really nice, just great, really awesome, and other dubious adjectives. The standard rating system has some legal grading of quality precedence and can protect the buyer and/or seller in the instance of remedial action. Terms like super duper don't mean squat.
 
Rod said:
As far as those buyers that search for firearms that are correct and original the grading system, if represented correctly, saves quite a bid of disappoint and hard feelings. . The later group appreciate the history and originality of certain firearms and a good many like a worn finish that only a lifetime of genuine use will produce. . When it's been re-blued, refinished or modified, even if expertly done, is no longer original and loses it's appeal. In this case it may be better off just buying a brand new gun.
Click to expand...
It depends on the gun, what's left of the original condition, who does the work and how much work is done. A Fox, Parker or Winchester Model 21 in NRA "fair" will increase in value if it's been restored by DelGrego, Turbull or Galazan. It won't be as valuable if the original condition were pristine but a properly restored gun will demand a higher price than "fair."
 
Turnbull and Tony do good work and their " restored" M21's, AH Fox and Parkers will definelty increase value but the cost of this work is difficult to recapture on resale. . Experienced buyers may pass on the fair condition model and pay extra for a higher grade right off the hop unless they're looking for a shooter grade .
 
Rod, it seems to me that a mistake you make is the assumption that "experienced buyers" are always looking for collector guns. ie original condition guns. Lots of us want guns to shoot them. Even guns that cost us a lot of money.

The whole deal with original condition originates with the concern that some bubba has messed with and screwed up the gun in some fashion. And the resulting wariness of looking at restored guns that are being passed off as original condition. It's primarily an American obsession (and because of proximity Canada as well). As has been noted, Europeans expect guns to be well maintained and in top condition. Not "never touched by human hand".

There is the actual condition of the gun. That can be described in many ways, including using the NRA system, which I like. But a perfectly restored gun by Turnbull or Dewey Vicknair or our own Claudio Opacek can be described (if that's what was intended for the "restoration") as being in "as new" condition. Because that's what it is.

The problem lies in then not further disclosing that it is a restoration by a competent smith. That can be as a result of subterfuge or ignorance.

Originality is something different than condition.

It's interesting to me that in another area of "collectability", the old car market, the cars that bring the millions of dollars at auction, that win Pebble Beach, ALL have been restored. But nobody is kidding anyone and trying to pass of the restoration as a "low mileage, lady driven" special.

Condition is condition, however it came to be. Originality is a different subject....related but different.
 
Canvasback . . . In regards to Winchester M21's, AH Fox's, L.C. Smith and Parkers by comparing them to vintage cars, here's my take on it.

1. Collector cars that are excellent original condition ; paint, upholstery etc and numbers match will draw the most dollars. . This is the way it is with the above mentioned firearms as well it's the ones the collectors get all excited about and pay the big dollars..

2. Next is the restored cars, but numbers match and correct in what they originally came with from the factory or as the serial number will represent. . Firearms in this group are the Turnbull and Galazan restored guns, still sought after by those who can't justify paying the high dollars but want one that's all correct and looks almost as good.

3. Then we have the cars that look good, run good, lots of goodies and go like hell, but are not numbers match or correct to the original order sheet and possibly the odd small deficiency but best described as daily drivers.. . Guns in this group will be disclosed as refinished or not restored exactly correct but still sought after for the price range they command and the buyer will be proud to own and not afraid to take out shooting or hunting upland game.. Same mind set as the daily driver.

4. The last bunch are the cars that still run and have the potential to be restored or refinished or just left and used the way they are. . Same thing with guns in this class.

The grading and feedback system is an honest attempt to ensure the buyer gets what they pay for and helps the seller get paid for the honest grade he represents. . It's not a fool proof system as there's always the cheaters and crooks out there that try try to upgrade firearms and pass them off as high grade originals. . eg. High grade Model 12's and especially high grade Model 42's. Still buyer beware in a lot of cases.
 
Last edited:
Rod, re your point #1 - Not true.

In the real high end of collector cars, say those that are shown at Pebble Beach for say, the last 40 years, they are all restored. Someone may pay a good buck for an original car, but then it's put through the process to make it perfect. And the cars that win are typically redone every 10 years and professional primped every year before major shows. The very top end of car collecting is nothing like the very top end of gun collecting in the US. Drop by RM's workshop in Chatham two months before Pebble and you'll see several being gone over with the fine tooth comb.

But my real point is about the separation of condition from originality. By suggesting a restored gun should automatically be considered "fair" by the NRA guidelines, you are conflating the two concepts.
 
canvasback said:
But my real point is about the separation of condition from originality. By suggesting a restored gun should automatically be considered "fair" by the NRA guidelines, you are conflating the two concepts.
Click to expand...
+1. While a 100 per cent original will obviously be worth more, a professionally restored gun or not being 100 per cent original does not automatically drop the condition from Excellent to Fair.

And depending on the gun "factory original" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I have a Perazzi from the early 00s when they weren't doing great stock work. I've had the wood professionally refinished and the checkering recut. It's a significant improvement and certainly doesn't mean the gun is now relegated to "fair" condition based on the refinish alone.
 
Further to that thought -
Try telling the owner of an upgraded Parker or Fox gun that their gun is only fair condition and value.
There is more than one way to see value in a firearm - and differing pools of potential buyers.
 
The market finds it's own level and we all have our own opinions. . Over the years I've had discussions with firearm enthusiasts who have paid dearly for their experience. . Paid handsomely for an upgraded gun, represented as correct and original, only to find out he had one hung on him with the actual resale value only a fraction of what he paid. .

"Correct and Original" are very important when buying high end firearms and when something is too good to be true it sometimes is. . eg. . fake pigeons that look like turkeys or crows, engraving patterns close but not authentic, refinished wood, re-blued metal, after market ribs. . There's so many made up guns represented as correct originals that some folks are of the opinion there's more fakes out there than was originally built. .

American made firearms have quite a solid following with fakers trying to cash in on the demand. . Gun Broker, Guns International, Guns America all have a high number of faked guns represented as originals and it takes a keen eye and good knowledge to tell the real ones from the fakes as the fakers have become very good at what they do. . So many are sticking to the plain guns in fear of being taken. . But then again, they want correct and original even with the plain guns.

Some of these fakes are disclosed as upgrades and sell for higher prices and used as shooters.

Anyways, I've said all I'm going to on this subject and I'll leave it at that. All the best.
 
Last edited:
Rod said:
The market finds it's own level and we all have our own opinions. . Over the years I've had discussions with firearm enthusiasts who have paid dearly for their experience. . Paid handsomely for an upgraded gun, represented as correct and original, only to find out he had one hung on him with the actual resale value only a fraction of what he paid. .

"Correct and Original" are very important when buying high end firearms and when something is too good to be true it sometimes is. . eg. . fake pigeons that look like turkeys or crows, engraving patterns close but not authentic, refinished wood, re-blued metal, after market ribs. . There's so many made up guns represented as correct originals that some folks are of the opinion there's more fakes out there than was originally built. .

American made firearms have quite a solid following with fakers trying to cash in on the demand. . Gun Broker, Guns International, Guns America all have a high number of faked guns represented as originals and it takes a keen eye and good knowledge to tell the real ones from the fakes as the fakers have become very good at what they do. . So many are sticking to the plain guns in fear of being taken. . But then again, they want correct and original even with the plain guns.

Some of these fakes are disclosed as upgrades and sell for higher prices and used as shooters.

Anyways, I've said all I'm going to on this subject and I'll leave it at that. All the best.
Click to expand...

I sometimes buy what may be considered a higher end gun. But I'm not a collector of American guns. So originality is almost meaningless for me. What is important is the condition of the barrels. Every other thing can be fixed and so my only concern when assessing a deal is how much will the repairs or restoration (done properly by highly qualified professionals) cost me and how does that cost relate to the price I'm considering paying.

For example Rod, I bought a gun last year that when I am finished with it is a $8000 USD gun all day long in the US. That's around $11,000 Cdn. When I am done the repairs and restoration, including purchase, I will have less than $5500 into it. I'm happy and so would any prospective purchaser of it. I have looked after the gun the way it was meant to be and would be buyers appreciate that. But it's a Continental gun from a highly regarded maker. Not an American gun.

I'm not arguing about what you say about American guns and collectors. You are absolutely right about them. But they are only part of the market. That's my point. And many of us judge, buy and use guns differently than those collectors of American made guns. So applying what those people value about American guns to all people and all guns just doesn't work.
 
canvasback said:
I'm not arguing about what you say about American guns and collectors. You are absolutely right about them. But they are only part of the market. That's my point. And many of us judge, buy and use guns differently than those collectors of American made guns. So applying what those people value about American guns to all people and all guns just doesn't work.
Click to expand...
It should also be pointed out this thread is about condition ratings on the EE. Not a place where one will likely find a Parker AAHE or an FE grade Fox and should one appear you'd want a little better description than, "Hey, it's in awesome shape. Email for pics." ;)
 
Claybuster said:
It should also be pointed out this thread is about condition ratings on the EE. Not a place where one will likely find a Parker AAHE or an FE grade Fox and should one appear you'd want a little better description than, "Hey, it's in awesome shape. Email for pics." ;)
Click to expand...

LOL So true. However, I am following a Gunbroker auction (and debating on bidding) for a Lindner made Charles Daly 12 bore. Lovely gun. In the original listing there was no mention of barrel length and a number of other key dimensions and characteristics. The seller has at least responded to questions. It's like people are clueless about what is required to sell a gun, but they know all about the info they need to buy a gun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom