IPSC sights, rulebook and interpretation

Rhythm & Soul

Rhythm & Soul

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Reading this from the IPSC website and rulebook:

Aftermarket open sights (see Rule 5.1.3.1) are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

Sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have colors applied. Sights may also be fitted with fiber optic or similar inserts.

Types of sights identified by IPSC are:
5.1.3.1 "Open sights" are aiming devices fitted to a firearm which do not use electronic circuitry and/or lenses. Fiber-optic inserts are deemed not to be lenses.

5.1.3.2 "Optical/electronic sights" are aiming devices (including flashlights) fitted to a firearm which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.


So, does that mean I can use Trijicon HD Nightsights, or fiber-optics sights and be ok for Production Division? (Glock 17 or PPQ M2 5").

From what I read seems that its ok, but I just wanted to ask because of this line

The Range Master is the final authority in respect of the classification of any sights used in an IPSC match and/or their compliance with these rules
 
Rhythm & Soul said:
Reading this from the IPSC website and rulebook:

Aftermarket open sights (see Rule 5.1.3.1) are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

Sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have colors applied. Sights may also be fitted with fiber optic or similar inserts.

Types of sights identified by IPSC are:
5.1.3.1 "Open sights" are aiming devices fitted to a firearm which do not use electronic circuitry and/or lenses. Fiber-optic inserts are deemed not to be lenses.

5.1.3.2 "Optical/electronic sights" are aiming devices (including flashlights) fitted to a firearm which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.


So, does that mean I can use Trijicon HD Nightsights, or fiber-optics sights and be ok for Production Division? (Glock 17 or PPQ M2 5").

From what I read seems that its ok, but I just wanted to ask because of this line

The Range Master is the final authority in respect of the classification of any sights used in an IPSC match and/or their compliance with these rules
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Yes. You just can't mill out the slide to accept a different type of open sight.
 
Trinimon said:
Yes. You just can't mill out the slide to accept a different type of open sight.
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I'll be the ignorant d*ck here.. What difference would milling out a slide make? Say milling a 1911 slide to accept CZ dovetail style sights? I don't see any performance gain from doing so.
 
Kidd X said:
I'll be the ignorant d*ck here.. What difference would milling out a slide make? Say milling a 1911 slide to accept CZ dovetail style sights? I don't see any performance gain from doing so.
Click to expand...
It doesn't but welcome to production division. If you are the type that likes to modify pistols, look at standard or open division instead. You will be happier in the long run.
 
Gotta agree with you for the most part 'cause indeed, open sights are open sights and I personally don't see an advantage from someone milling out a dovetail slot to accept Novak or whoever's open sights they prefer. On the other hand, I guess it also defeats the term "production" if one was to do custom milling to the dovetail slot as technically, that's modifying an off-the-shelf pistol. Kinda the same thing as if one was to paintfill an otherwise unmodified pistol, that would put them in standard division even though it does not provide any advantage to the shooter. Go figure.

Heck, might not be a bad thing to shoot standard since production usually has 3-4x as many shooters as standard at any one match.

Heck, if someone shot revolver, they could come in second out of two shooters in that division. :p
 
Kidd X said:
I'll be the ignorant d*ck here.. What difference would milling out a slide make? Say milling a 1911 slide to accept CZ dovetail style sights? I don't see any performance gain from doing so.
Click to expand...

Because production division rules in IPSC are retarded (and mostly unenforceable)

Plus when you recommend any changes for the most part youre told its fine, if you don't like it shoot something else
 
Kidd X said:
I'll be the ignorant d*ck here.. What difference would milling out a slide make? Say milling a 1911 slide to accept CZ dovetail style sights? I don't see any performance gain from doing so.
Click to expand...

I think the reasoning is that, at least for production division, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a mile.

" I was trying to mill the slide to accept X brand sight, but I slipped and accidentally removed 2oz of weight. But the sight now fits!"

A lightened slide can offer performance gains

1911s are not used in production so mill away.
 
pauls said:
if you give someone an inch, they'll take a mile.
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THIS IS WHY the ipsc rulebook is growing so thick.
The rules in the book are there because some #### tried to gain an advantage.

How about this.
Your a better shooter. Stop looking for a mechanical advantage and out shoot the other guys. Man up.
:stirthepot2:
 
StoneHorse said:
It doesn't but welcome to production division. If you are the type that likes to modify pistols, look at standard or open division instead. You will be happier in the long run.
Click to expand...

I'm happier shooting a more realistic and less gear centric discipline. The retarded rules in IPSC are but one of many reasons I don't participate.

Onagoth said:
Because production division rules in IPSC are retarded (and mostly unenforceable)

Plus when you recommend any changes for the most part youre told its fine, if you don't like it shoot something else
Click to expand...

And as above, this is why I don't participate in IPSC. Retarded rules, nothing practical about the discipline and too many whiners looking for complain about other competitors gear.

pauls said:
I think the reasoning is that, at least for production division, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a mile.

" I was trying to mill the slide to accept X brand sight, but I slipped and accidentally removed 2oz of weight. But the sight now fits!"

A lightened slide can offer performance gains

1911s are not used in production so mill away.
Click to expand...

A standard dovetail is vastly different than removing weight/material from the slide. Either way removing weight is not gonna take you to the podium and neither are wizzy sights or triggers. Either you can shoot or you can't.
 
Kidd X said:
A standard dovetail is vastly different than removing weight/material from the slide. Either way removing weight is not gonna take you to the podium and neither are wizzy sights or triggers. Either you can shoot or you can't.
Click to expand...
And that's exactly the point of Production. It's shifts the focus from the gear to the shooter. Take a box-stock pistol and the best shooters will win. It takes more than a light trigger or different sights to win in Production. Want to win? Go practice more! Pretty simple really.
 
Kidd X said:
A standard dovetail is vastly different than removing weight/material from the slide. Either way removing weight is not gonna take you to the podium and neither are wizzy sights or triggers. Either you can shoot or you can't.
Click to expand...


Where do you draw the line as to what is adequate or excessive slide machining to fit a sight?
Should ROs be trained gunsmiths or machinists to be able to determine this?
No machining or refinishing allowed = one less things to monitor in production division.
There are other divisions which allow modifications

I can't speak to other "more realistic" disciplines, but at least in IPSC the level of competition is high enough that top scores are separated by a hundredth of a second.
I'll take any advantage I can get, real or perceived.
 
Viper26 said:
And that's exactly the point of Production. It's shifts the focus from the gear to the shooter. Take a box-stock pistol and the best shooters will win. It takes more than a light trigger or different sights to win in Production. Want to win? Go practice more! Pretty simple really.
Click to expand...

Most shooters I've met in production have done extensive work on their guns, including changing springs, bending or trimming springs, polishing, swapping parts, etc, etc. Tell me that the Tanfoglio xtreme guns are box stock guns? Just cause the factory does all the modifications?

IMO, USPSA production rules are far more logical than IPSC.
 
If you work within the rule set, what's the issue?
If people are cheating, then they are cheaters.

The xtreme is a factory gun and approved for production.
What's the issue with a manufacturer building products that the market wants?
Nothing is preventing any manufacturer from catering to their customers.
 
Onagoth said:
Most shooters I've met in production have done extensive work on their guns, including changing springs, bending or trimming springs, polishing, swapping parts, etc, etc. Tell me that the Tanfoglio xtreme guns are box stock guns? Just cause the factory does all the modifications?

IMO, USPSA production rules are far more logical than IPSC.
Click to expand...
None of those things will "buy" you a win. The top shooters will always be because they put in the time.
 
Excessive gear?
Lmao..
I'm sorry, but if you need better gear to win your doing it wrong. Everyone shoots in their division and the only advantage is having a reliable gun vs not.
I took 3rd place in classic at nationals with a beat to crap springfield loaded and ghost pouches with rusted screws that hardly hold their tilt.
I did buy new wilson mags (gasp).
The trigger was 3.8lbs.
I'd love an Sti Dvc classic, or inifinity. I don't need it.
Those on the top in ipsc have devoted time. The gear we use is for our own Vanity, nothing else.. Man up! It's not gear that gets you a win.

The ONLY place gear matters is Open. A reliable gun cost $$$. The difference between first and 5th sometimes is a jam or faulty sight.

If someone complains about gear, they simply are a ####ty shooter.
 
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In it's simplistic form, if an IPSC production rig is compared to an IDPA rig, I guess one can call it excessive since you got 4+ mag pouches for IPSC vs 2 mag pouches for IDPA. Similar holsters can be used for both formats so that's a wash.
 
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