Pics of the inside of your ATRS AT,MV,MH lower reciever?

[jiffx2781]

I really (as you know) have a hard time believing this (making a new trigger single pin drop in housing that reqiures no reciever alterations, but would require alterations to the width of the implant trigger//<--definite liability issues there from a manufacturer perspective, and certainly would void warranty on the implant trigger) is any different than altering a non-manufacturer offered barrel or BCG to fit.

From both a manufacturing and a consumer perspective I can't see how designing a drop in housing and still having to machine material from the sides of the implant trigger could possibly be cost effective, especially considering the few that would actually want to have this done. The numbers don't make sense. Not to mention that you are weekening the structural integrity of the new trigger pack being altered. Who is possibly going to do this for you? I sure as he!! wouldn't.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Rick, would it be possible you could ask the lab for clarification before anyone goes down such a road as making an upgrade to the trigger (specifically without any alteration to reciever dimensions). It seems to me you were looking at sourcing Trigger Tech triggers at one point, so surely the manufacturers name being specifically noted in the FRT cant be that big of a deal other than it being a way of noting the single pin drop in trigger design was the only factory option offered.

If parts are made to fit the gun, and not the other way around.... then it's no different than the barrel issue where folks must adapt barrels to fit rather than notching their recievers to accept standard barrels.

Let me ask you this: is the 6 o'clock indexing pin mentioned in the FRT? If so, how is it a different issue from the trigger? Both are mentioned, we are allowed to alter barrels to fit legally, but not allowed to alter triggers to fit legally?

Both would have zero dimensional changes to the reciever, and are both specifically noted in the FRT as design characteristics if I am not mistaken, and both are based off of basic AR part that (like the BCG) have been specially modified or incorporated into the Modern series design.

I really (as you know) have a hard time believing this (making a new trigger single pin drop in housing that reqiures no reciever alterations, but would require alterations to the width of the implant trigger//<--definite liability issues there from a manufacturer perspective, and certainly would void warranty on the implant trigger) is any different than altering a non-manufacturer offered barrel or BCG to fit.

Muzzleing the aftermarket manufactures from innovation is a real shame. The Modern series is a really unique platform with strong potential, but I feel the aftermarket could improve it more starting with 2 pin to single pin trigger housings, and possibly even a lower pofile charging handle. (Although the new spring assisted Charging handle appears to be a great design improvement, just wish it stuck out less)

/rant

The guys at the lab will offer NO, NONE, ZERO opinion or guidance in any way shape or form as to what they may or may not do. The standard answer is always "send it to us for inspection and we will determine what the status is" which means we have to make it, submit and roll the dice. We have played this game for years with them, so have first hand experience that VERY few manufacturers have.

We have the desired legal status for our rifles and I do NOT want to screw with it. Given the current regime and the fact now that the RCMP has "carte blanche" to do as they please, it is just a stupid idea to open Pandora's box needlessly to potentially please 1 or 2 people that have our guns. How many options exist for Swiss Arms , or Famae, or XCR rifles for replacement triggers? Damned few if any I suspect.

Knowing the 2 guys at the SFSS/RCMP lab personally for many years, I would prefer to try a go of yanking a lions tail like some of the African guys do as I think the potential for a negative outcome would be far less.

To date you are the only one that has a hard on to change to a different make of trigger. If you want to embark on having someone else make some sort of gizmo to allow you to install the trigger you so desire, feel free to, I still have the deniability of claiming we had no hand in it so will have no exposure.

I think this horse has been beaten to death very thoroughly.

 

[cr5]

The guys at the lab will offer NO, NONE, ZERO opinion or guidance in any way shape or form as to what they may or may not do. The standard answer is always "send it to us for inspection and we will determine what the status is" which means we have to make it, submit and roll the dice. We have played this game for years with them, so have first hand experience that VERY few manufacturers have.

We have the desired legal status for our rifles and I do NOT want to screw with it. Given the current regime and the fact now that the RCMP has "carte blanche" to do as they please, it is just a stupid idea to open Pandora's box needlessly to potentially please 1 or 2 people that have our guns. How many options exist for Swiss Arms , or Famae, or XCR rifles for replacement triggers? Damned few if any I suspect.

Knowing the 2 guys at the SFSS/RCMP lab personally for many years, I would prefer to try a go of yanking a lions tail like some of the African guys do as I think the potential for a negative outcome would be far less.

To date you are the only one that has a hard on to change to a different make of trigger. If you want to embark on having someone else make some sort of gizmo to allow you to install the trigger you so desire, feel free to, I still have the deniability of claiming we had no hand in it so will have no exposure.

I think this horse has been beaten to death very thoroughly.

Agreed, I think you should stop being such a nice guy and when people come in complaining their rifle is broken and it's obvious they have been tinkering and wrecked something in the process charge them full shop rate plus full retail for any parts required and only return it to original condition, if the original trigger pack is not in the lower then charge for a new original trigger. Same as a car dealership does on a warranty claim if a guy has his car towed in and it has a blown motor with an aftermarket supercharger on it.
Perhaps some financial consequences to their actions would be better deterrent than simply stating it in the manual then fixing the rifle anyway when someone does it anyway.

 

[jiffx2781]

Just thought I should add to this.

This weekend I had the opportunity, ummm, I mean the PLEASURE of getting behind a rifle with the new Calvin Elite 1.5lb trigger pack for 80 rounds of absolute awesomeness!!

I HIGHLY recommend for any of you guys, who for some unknown reason, aren't satisfied with the excellent trigger that the MV/MH rifles already use to consider this as quite possibly the best upgrade you could make to your Modern Series rifle (or any ar-15 rifle).

Since Rick has stated here that he is willing to work something out for guys who would like to have their trigger changed I highly suggest you give him a call.

I'm already started on saving up coin to order a 6.5 Grendel MV and after putting a few boxes through the C.E. trigger this weekend I WILL NOT order it without one. There is nothing wrong with the current 3lb trigger but the C.E. is just that much nicer.

If anyone seriously wants change don't eff with it. Call Rick. A few bucks for shipping and labor is cheap insurance that it will be done right.

 

[cr5]

Just thought I should add to this.

This weekend I had the opportunity, ummm, I mean the PLEASURE of getting behind a rifle with the new Calvin Elite 1.5lb trigger pack for 80 rounds of absolute awesomeness!!

I HIGHLY recommend for any of you guys, who for some unknown reason, aren't satisfied with the excellent trigger that the MV/MH rifles already use to consider this as quite possibly the best upgrade you could make to your Modern Series rifle (or any ar-15 rifle).

Since Rick has stated here that he is willing to work something out for guys who would like to have their trigger changed I highly suggest you give him a call.

I'm already started on saving up coin to order a 6.5 Grendel MV and after putting a few boxes through the C.E. trigger this weekend I WILL NOT order it without one. There is nothing wrong with the current 3lb trigger but the C.E. is just that much nicer.

If anyone seriously wants change don't eff with it. Call Rick. A few bucks for shipping and labor is cheap insurance that it will be done right.

Is the Calvin a single stage or 2-stage?

Looking forward to some reviews of the MV Grendel.

 

[jiffx2781]

Is the Calvin a single stage or 2-stage?

Looking forward to some reviews of the MV Grendel.

Single stage. I will post a better review of it here when I get the time. I will post comparisons between the C.E. and the Trigger Tech to help give guys an idea because there are probably many already familiar with the Trigger Tech (which won't work in this).

EDIT: Been there, done that. See post below.

As for a review on the Grendel it will be a while. Money don't grow on trees in my home plus lengthy wait times after ordering.
Thanks for being interested.

 

[jiffx2781]

My honest opinion and review on the factory installed 3lb trigger pack vs the new Calvin Elite 1.5lb trigger pack vs Trigger Tech Adaptable AR Primary Trigger with user adjustable pull weight, (TT is not compatible and only included in review for comparison purposes because it is a commonly available option for the ar-15 that many may be familiar with).

I will refer to the triggers as follows: Factory Trigger = FT; Calvin Elite Trigger = CE; Trigger Tech = TT.

FT; 3lb pull weight, single stage. Practically zero take up or creep. Crisp clean predictable break. Consistent pull weight. Quick reset. Excellent trigger. Not much else to say about it except that the 3lb pull weight still offers enough resistance before the break to pull a shot slightly off target. I like a lighter pull weight but of course that's just personal preferences based on my own abilities. (or in abilities, you see it how you wish)

TT; Short two stage. First stage take up is very short with a light 0.75lb pull weight. Second stage pull weight is user adjustable between 1.75lb - 4.25lb giving you a total combined pull weight from 2.5lb - 5lb. Second stage has zero creep with a VERY pronounced crisp break. Consistent pull weight. Possibly the quickest reset of the three triggers. I don't see much benefit from the TT compared to the FT except for user ability to adjust pull weight. Still a minimum 2.5lb pull weight and for me, 2.5lb compared to the 3lb of the FT offers very little if any real world noticeable difference. Still offers enough resistance before the break for me to pull a shot slightly off target.

CE; 1.5lb pull weight, single stage. Very slight amount of creep, and I do mean minimal, I'm being honest and very picky. (About half the length or less of the first stage take up on the TT). VERY SMOOTH (and I can't emphasize that enough) pull until it breaks. Even with the slight travel before the break it still maintains predictability and there is nowhere along the way that offers any additional resistance. A very light 1.5lb pull to start movement and the rest is just follow through. The light weight and SMOOTHNESS of the pull on this trigger allow you the ability to stay on target and maintain position throughout the entire process from target aqusition to follow through. I didn't have to chance to check pull weight for consistency but I can tell you buy the smoothness of this trigger there is no reason for me to doubt it. The lighter the pull weight the easier I find it to detect inconsistencies or rough spots and this did not leave me questioning any part of it. Once again, a very quick reset (the TT may have a slight edge in this department compared to both the Timney's, but then again I'm being very picky). Oh and have I already mentioned how SMOOTH this trigger is? I'm definitely impressed.

I mainly use this rifle for coyotes. Only paper punching has been for sight in and bullet drop calculations at various ranges and a couple random outings to keep me refreshed. I've became accustomed to using lighter triggers in hunting rigs. My 700's all have Trigger Tech's set as low as they can. A light trigger is no problem in the field, it's all about trigger discipline. I definitely see a benefit to a lighter, smoother trigger pull for both longer shots and running shots. The ability to stay on target throughout the entire process is rewarding both on paper and in the field. Due to the smoothness of the CE trigger I think I found a winner.

 

[jiffx2781]

Shot these this morning with my MV. 1 box of factory Federal Premium 223 55gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. 200 yards. Yes you read that correctly 200 yards. Buddy hasn't returned my range finder and the only spot I have to shoot with a known confirmed exact distance is 200 yards. Shot from a bi-pod with my hand under the pistol grip acting as a rear rest. My MV has the light profile barrel.

View attachment 116371
First 5 shots. 1 1/8th inches at 200 yards.

View attachment 116372
Second 5 shots. 1 3/8th inches at 200 yards.

View attachment 116373
Last 10 shots. 2 1/16th inches at 200 yards. Keep in mind the pencil barrel. The last 4 shot were the 2 at the top and the 2 to the right. The first 6 shot just as tight as my first group of 5. The group opened up as the barrel warmed.

So why do we have this "need" for a different trigger? (myself included). Good question. Best answer I can come up with is simply that we all have preferences. There is no true "need".
Rick has already put a fine trigger in an even finer rifle.

 

[cr5]

That's some nice shooting, your rifle seems to really like that ammo.
Did you go with 7 or 8 twist?

I personally don't want a trigger lighter than 3 pounds for a rifle I'll be using hunting, I get a little excited sometimes and need to feel the trigger on my finger before it breaks, my target rifles on the other hand can be lighter without causing any surprises for me.

 

[jiffx2781]

Thanks. 8 twist. The only other ammo I tried was the Hornady 55gr v-max, still shot between .75 and .9 moa but the Federal is for sure the winner. Would like to try some 69gr SMK one day but even if it is a little bit better I'm not so sure I can shoot any better than this.

 

[onetwentyish]

The guys at the lab will offer NO, NONE, ZERO opinion or guidance in any way shape or form as to what they may or may not do. The standard answer is always "send it to us for inspection and we will determine what the status is" which means we have to make it, submit and roll the dice. We have played this game for years with them, so have first hand experience that VERY few manufacturers have.

We have the desired legal status for our rifles and I do NOT want to screw with it. Given the current regime and the fact now that the RCMP has "carte blanche" to do as they please, it is just a stupid idea to open Pandora's box needlessly to potentially please 1 or 2 people that have our guns. How many options exist for Swiss Arms , or Famae, or XCR rifles for replacement triggers? Damned few if any I suspect.

Knowing the 2 guys at the SFSS/RCMP lab personally for many years, I would prefer to try a go of yanking a lions tail like some of the African guys do as I think the potential for a negative outcome would be far less.

To date you are the only one that has a hard on to change to a different make of trigger. If you want to embark on having someone else make some sort of gizmo to allow you to install the trigger you so desire, feel free to, I still have the deniability of claiming we had no hand in it so will have no exposure.

I think this horse has been beaten to death very thoroughly.

I HIGHLY recommend for any of you guys, who for some unknown reason, aren't satisfied with the excellent trigger that the MV/MH rifles already use to consider this as quite possibly the best upgrade you could make to your Modern Series rifle (or any ar-15 rifle).

Since Rick has stated here that he is willing to work something out for guys who would like to have their trigger changed I highly suggest you give him a call.

If anyone seriously wants change don't eff with it. Call Rick. A few bucks for shipping and labor is cheap insurance that it will be done right.

Personal grudge against Timney (for their double screw up on their Tavor trigger which was my first and last experience I wish to have with their products) aside, I run Geissele's in all my other rifles as they feel better and have the reputation of reliability with LEO/Mil community (something Timney can't even aquire in the civilian market). As such, in the interest of keeping my black rifles feeling similar as well as reliable, I wish to install a Geissele, or at least a non-Timney trigger.

I have no interest in stiring #### at the lab for the boys at ATRS, Rick and Dustin are good people and dont deserve that. However, givens the fact that Rick was trying to source Geissele and Trigger Tech single pin triggers (both manufacturers seemingly have no interest in producing such a thing for a single customer even if the order is in the thousands) and since those would have been acceptable, how are custom one off triggers not?

What is the difference in making a custom single pin Geissele trigger (adapted from a standard 2 pin design being fitted into a custom made single pin housing similar to the Timney) vs a factory Geissele single pin?

Keep in mind nothing is being dimensionally changed with in the rifle itself, rather it is purely the swaping of manufacture made parts that have been tweaked to the Modern series of rifle.

No different than
-BCG charging handle notch
-Barrel indexing pin
-Safety core.

Are you telling me I can install a Lantac E-BCG, Colt barrel, and Battle Arms BAD-CASS safeties, all with a little tweaking but a Geissele is crossing the line?

ATRS made the rifle use AR parts with tweaks so if they went under, users could still keep their guns going. The trigger shouldn't be considered any different. And what happens if Timney quites producing this trigger in the future? What happens in the unlikely but possible event that Timney goes under, or is absorbed by a larger corporation with different ideas and product designs?

Should we be proactive in preserving and improving the Modern series, or just pray that they dont break?

The ACR uses AR barrels (with gas port modification) and also can take standard AR triggers (with a bent spring for engaging the safety) which are fitted into a trigger housing, and the ACR even has the same stepped upper/lower design.

The problem is not the origin of the manufacture of parts. Its the design. The design would remain unchanged.

 

[jiffx2781]

onetwentyish, I totally get your beef with the Tavor trigger, however, apples to oranges. This isn't that. Every company grows a lemon sooner or later. The Tavor trigger was Timney's lemon.
As for your desire to utilize a Geissele, that isn't because there is anything wrong with the Timney you have. It's just personal preference. How can one expect a manufacturer to please each persons different preferences? Can you name ONE other manufacturer that will bend over backwards to do as you please. I think not. But for some reason people think that just because you are a small business owner it's your obligation to please them. I know all about it. Try pushing the big players around and see where you get. Hmmm.... I thought so.
Think of it from their prospective. They designed, built and had APPROVAL designated to them based on the specifications of THEIR design criteria. Not yours. Simple to figure out why they won't do as you ask ain't it? I think so. Or are you just used to getting your own way in life? Have a tantrum and they will do as I please. I know others like that too and it doesn't take them where they want to go.
What I take from Rick's post is that he never said YOU can't embark on your mission. He only said that HE wouldn't. Since I'm a glass half full kind a guy I wouldn't see that as a shut door and an end to your desire to satisfy your grudge against Timney. Go make your own gizmo or find and pay someone else to do it for you. Simple right? I think so. But since you seem to be a glass half empty kind a guy (in this situation at least) you can't seem to see the forest for the trees.
I agree I see NOTHING wrong with adapting parts to fit as long as you dont make any direct dimensional changes to the receiver. I just can't figure out why you are so bent on expecting them to do it for you? Just because you got a NO from them doesn't mean YOUR answer is no. I hope this helps you figure it out.
Now run along with your tail between your legs, leave them alone, and go make that Geissele work. I'm actually looking forward to seeing the end result, success or not.

 

[onetwentyish]

You have really taken me wrong, and obviously have not been following the charades over the last couple years since these rifles came out.

I have no problems designing and making my own parts, or hiring someone more qualified than myself to produce my design. I do not demand ATRS do it for me, and I can fully understand/respect the fact that they desire not to even if I paid them to. My only chip on my shoulder with this whole thing is Rick insists I will be to blame for any future reclassification should I embark on this mission. This frankly is not correct, and I am merely looking for him to embrace aftermarket support of Modern series specific custom parts rather than try to fu-fu anthing that is not OEM made or installed, especially when he could produce the parts himself for profit if his assembly lines were not allready running full tilt. (Maybe that is the game plan, hold the upgrades off until demand slows so they can begin offering upgrades as a means to stay busy?)

He doesn't answer why any OEM installed trigger by other manufactures would be acceptable, but mine would not be? Instead I get told I am opening Pandora's box, perhaps as a means to scare me off.

Only thing holding up the giessele install is funds for proto type housings really. I have a pretty good idea it will work, if not I will have a wrecked Geissele SSA.

This is assuming that no one offers up anything more than fear mongering for an explanation as to why one should not.

As for my beef with Timney, its not just the fact they produced a lemon. My biggest issue is the time to market lie they told everyone. I put money down (paid in full IIRC) as soon as the launch date was provided. Not only were they no where near ready for the launch, they ceased production so they could make R700 triggers due to the recall. They knew they had us by our nuts so they pushed production back months (6 IIRC) so the could squeeze easy cash out of the R700 recall all the while knowing we (Tavor guys) were not going anywhere and that it was fine to push us back in the que because they allready had the preorders! Then when it finally got to market 6 months later the rushed/half-baked R&D was obvious with numerous reports of unwanted burst fire and hammers breaking. By the time Timney's botched trigger was on the market, Giessele was only a month behind, and it was next to impossible to sell a Timney trigger due to the bad press. (Still not sure it was entirely ethical to sell my new one at that time, but I did). All things considered, my respect for Timney faded to zero, and my confidence in their product is nearly equal. Yes I took the delays made to the Tavor Timney I had allready paid for (so they could cash in on R700 owners poor luck) personally. They did not just miss their deadline, they provided a poor product that was not even resalable or ahead of the competition by any meaningful amount like they said was the case.

 

[jiffx2781]

Oh I totally get where you are coming from. I've followed the whole MH/MV thing from the beginning but never got involved until I had a foot in the race. I had no interest in buying a MH because the cost was prohibitive for all I would use it but when the MV was announced I jumped on it. I do have an investment to be concerned about too. Opening pandora's box would be taking the easy way out and simply drilling the second hole and, going by your posts, I can tell you're not that stupid.
You see it as you're trying to help and they see it as they have an investment to protect. In the end it's their business and their product so that makes them the boss. Not you. You've done your part trying to convince them to no prevail. You've tried to be proactive and now that it isn't turning out the way you think it should, give up, go do your thing, and if or when you successfully complete your mission maybe, just maybe they will see your point. And if they still don't see it the way you do why should you care? I'm not against what you want to do but I can't figure out your approach. It's time for some offense instead of defence. Sometimes it's just easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. I wasn't afraid to post and discuss making alterations to adapt other products to fit and function but instead of asking if the safety I desired would work and getting no for an answer I just went ahead and did it. Successfully I might add, and I am happy with my results. No harm done. Problem is not everyone has the ability or know how to make alterations successfully and SAFELY. This is why I spent some time explaining this is not your common mix and match rifle. Do you honestly think Rick or anyone else for that matter is going to tell people it's OK? It's not hard to figure out what you are going to be told.
As far as the Tavor trigger catastrophe goes you have no need to educate or convince me. You weren't the only one who got screwed.

 

[cr5]

onetwentyish,
I think you would be happier if you sold the MH and bought a 102, then you could swap in whatever trigger you wanted and swap barrels and forends and do anything you wanted to it without worrying about having to try to adapt something to work.

I'd be interested to see if you could make a Giessele work in there but if you're just doing it because you don't like Timney or your worried about them going out of business and you not being able to get parts for it as you mentioned I think you're being a little stubborn trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I think that if you do get someone to build a housing to hold the giessele in there you're going to end up paying the machinist a lot of money to build your one off piece and it's going to end up costing you $800 to swap triggers and then depending how skilled the machinist is you may not even end up with something safe to use.

I don't think Rick was saying you would be the guy to cause reclassification over the trigger swap, I think he meant more that if he was to have to send in another prototype with a different trigger to see if they were OK with it that it opens up the door for them to reclassify the platform. If you want to try to make something else work in there you are free to go ahead with it just don't expect ATRS to support or condone it as the success of the Modern series is riding on these rifles remaining non restricted and they won't give the Lab any opportunity to reclassify them just because one person doesn't like Timney.

 

[fenceline]

They wouldn't have to send in another sample because of a trigger change.

The gun, as in the lower, has been classified. Nothing you add in the way of a trigger or different barrel would change that, save for the barrel length being shorter than 18.5 inches making the entire individual gun restricted by barrel length only.

That wouldn't be a reclassification of the whole design. Just the one gun. And it could be reversed by installing the longer barrel and re verifying the individual gun.

All this bluster about upside down barrel pins and different triggers being the key to a favourable classification is beyond silly. Proprietary and shop specific... yes... but nothing that would affect a reclass.

 

[DILLIGAF]

the 102 addresses all these issues

 

[jiffx2781]

......but if you're just doing it because you don't like Timney......

That's the only thing I picked up out of all his ramblings.

onetwenytish, life is so much more enjoyable once you learn to dust off all those chips you leave piled on your shoulder. Maybe one day you will wisen up. Once life becomes more enjoyable to yourself it will become more enjoyable to everyone around you. Now go get your favorite trigger installed and enjoy. Just trying to help.

 

[cr5]

They wouldn't have to send in another sample because of a trigger change.

The gun, as in the lower, has been classified. Nothing you add in the way of a trigger or different barrel would change that, save for the barrel length being shorter than 18.5 inches making the entire individual gun restricted by barrel length only.

That wouldn't be a reclassification of the whole design. Just the one gun. And it could be reversed by installing the longer barrel and re verifying the individual gun.

All this bluster about upside down barrel pins and different triggers being the key to a favourable classification is beyond silly. Proprietary and shop specific... yes... but nothing that would affect a reclass.

I think the concern comes from the trigger brand being specifically named on the FRT.
You're right though, it should make no difference to classification as long as the receiver is not modified and the barrel remains longer than 18.5 inch.

the 102 addresses all these issues

It's an NEA, I'm guessing it will bring it's own issues once the new wears off and people aren't blinded by the price

 

[fenceline]

There is a lot mentioned in the frt of different guns. Just because it is in the frt, doesn't mean the classification hinges on it.

The lower is classified. Unless you make the lower full auto, that won't change to be anything other than restricted or Non restricted based on barrel length.