Is this the MH internals thread or the 120ish advice column? I'm all confused and $&#%, wasn't the tavor timney half the price of the gazelle? Mine worked great, is there something wrong with the single pin timney in the MH?, do we really think 120 cares about our ramblings?, is the 102 the death of the MH? Is an ar-10 the same thing as a bolt action? If I put garbage in will I get garbage out? Does that work with recycling? Sorry, been drinking, mood too dark in here. Flame on
Pics of the inside of your ATRS AT,MV,MH lower reciever?
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I won't flame. It's apparent your hangover will be enough to deal with.
Is this the MH internals thread or the 120ish advice column? I'm all confused and $&#%, wasn't the tavor timney half the price of the gazelle? Mine worked great, is there something wrong with the single pin timney in the MH?, do we really think 120 cares about our ramblings?, is the 102 the death of the MH? Is an ar-10 the same thing as a bolt action? Do FRT's have anything to do with logic? If I put garbage in will I get garbage out? Does that work with recycling? Sorry, been drinking, mood too dark in here. Flame on
Nah I'm of Irish blood my fiends...but I replied to my own post. I don't even know how I did that.
onetwentyish
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Cr5, totally get what your saying about a problem that doesn't exist. However the fact that it is not a flat faced reliable 2 stage is off putting to me. I would have seriously considered the switch up to a BCL102, but I am more invested in changing the trigger in my 5.56 rifle than the .308 one as its the one that will get shot in a similar style to my other Geissele triggered rifles and all things considered I am happy to own a serial matched pair of Modern Series rifles that I would only ever sell as a pair.
As such, swapping out to a BCL 102 is not really of much consideration to me, however someday I might add one to the stable.
Rick has had a pretty steady voice of repeating that any custom trigger housing, barrel pin alignment change, etc modifications are what will open these up to re-examination by the lab, and he specifically freeked on me in forum and via PM (think all caps rage and use of first name in the publicly open forum) the first time I brought this long ago, but that is a story for over a beer next time I am up your way.
I am sorry for the #### slinging contest this has become guys, my weekend probably hasn't been as stress free as most of yours. Im out of here, and you will hear no more from me on this topic until I have something to show for my rambling.
I think I made my point pretty clear a few pages back. If anyone else has interest in a custom trigger housing, let me know.
As such, swapping out to a BCL 102 is not really of much consideration to me, however someday I might add one to the stable.
Rick has had a pretty steady voice of repeating that any custom trigger housing, barrel pin alignment change, etc modifications are what will open these up to re-examination by the lab, and he specifically freeked on me in forum and via PM (think all caps rage and use of first name in the publicly open forum) the first time I brought this long ago, but that is a story for over a beer next time I am up your way.
I am sorry for the #### slinging contest this has become guys, my weekend probably hasn't been as stress free as most of yours. Im out of here, and you will hear no more from me on this topic until I have something to show for my rambling.
I think I made my point pretty clear a few pages back. If anyone else has interest in a custom trigger housing, let me know.
onetwentyish
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So when is BCL going to make a stripped upper for the MV with a standard charging handle, forward assist, barrel index pin spot in the 12 position?
Since we're all at it I might just as well. I let this one pass before but.....
While I tend to agree with your simple logic I don't tend to believe in it. You are well aware of how illogical the people we're relying upon to instill logic into the decisions that they make can be, correct am I not?
Now even though your statement exudes confidence it fails to include any of the fundimentals of realism.
The day you take it upon yourself to submit to the RCMP, and have them approve as NR, a rifle that you claim is a new design but has NOTHING changed from an ar-15 except for the fitment of the two receiver halves, (it wouldn't even have to be as drastic as the ATRS receiver profile to make incompatibility) and have them NOT call it a varient is the day I will start to belive in your simple logic.
When you pull it off I'll be the first in line to buy two. After all they should be extremely affordable due to the lack of R&D required on your behalf. Isn't this what we've all been waiting for? If your logic is in reality as simple as your confidence then what are you waiting for???? Keep dreaming guy. Some of us live in the real world. Until then I'll stick to my MV.
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I don't care what you believe or why you justify your perspectice on the matter.
I know where the law sits, and how classification works.
If you think a trigger or the location of a bump on a barrel affects the classification of a lower... good on ya.
onetwentyish
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Wow you've switched from offence to defence in an awful hurry now haven't you? Why would that be? I know, it's because you know you couldn't pull it off no matter how hard you tried isn't it? But you keep up your confidence act, someone might get fooled into buying it. I know what I said will never happen so like I said, I'll stick to my MV. Good luck with your show. I'm out
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If I was defensive I'd still be arguing my point. I offer it up for what it is. Im glad you have your modern v and im glad it is classed as it is.
Facts are facts.
Your continued presence here and your feeling the constant need to state the facts and not back them with something of substanance is a confirmation of your defenciveness. Thank you for proving my point.
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Not being able to convince you isnt proof I'm wrong.
In stating facts, proof is not required. Hence why they are accepted as facts.
A lower, once regulated and classified, will not be altered in classification by simply changing a trigger group, unless in some way that modification is used to create a full auto function.
The design of the MV and the MH, and the resulting classifaction determining it not to be an AR15 variant, is due simply because of the fit of the upper and lower together and the unique design of the rear take down point.
Trigger and barrel pin location are mute items in this determination.
In fact, the only difference noted in the frt that specifically speaks of it being something different than in an AR15 or AR10 is how the two receivers fit together.
Nothing else in the frt references the ar10 or ar15 for features that are different. Not the trigger, not the barrel as being different than how the ar15 works... just the receivers.
Weird eh. Wonder why that is...
Maybe because only regulated parts are regulated.
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Cr5, totally get what your saying about a problem that doesn't exist. However the fact that it is not a flat faced reliable 2 stage is off putting to me. I would have seriously considered the switch up to a BCL102, but I am more invested in changing the trigger in my 5.56 rifle than the .308 one as its the one that will get shot in a similar style to my other Geissele triggered rifles and all things considered I am happy to own a serial matched pair of Modern Series rifles that I would only ever sell as a pair.
As such, swapping out to a BCL 102 is not really of much consideration to me, however someday I might add one to the stable.
Rick has had a pretty steady voice of repeating that any custom trigger housing, barrel pin alignment change, etc modifications are what will open these up to re-examination by the lab, and he specifically freeked on me in forum and via PM (think all caps rage and use of first name in the publicly open forum) the first time I brought this long ago, but that is a story for over a beer next time I am up your way.
I am sorry for the #### slinging contest this has become guys, my weekend probably hasn't been as stress free as most of yours. Im out of here, and you will hear no more from me on this topic until I have something to show for my rambling.
I think I made my point pretty clear a few pages back. If anyone else has interest in a custom trigger housing, let me know.
As someone who has heard both sides of the story from early on in your adventures with Rick on this subject I think you've missed Rick's point slightly. He does not want to do the modifications himself to satisfy a single customer as it is not cost effective and he probably feels that since the FRT specifically states the trigger brand that any modification to the rifle at the manufacturers level would open the door to needing to send one in for inspection giving them a chance to look into the classification again. I can also understand his frustration and why you may have gotten the all caps response, he has said no and that is not going to change no matter how many times you talk to him about it. Modifying the Varmint upper to accept standard AR-15 barrels would be incredibly easy and relocating the index pin on a barrel to fit an unmodified receiver wouldn't be difficult either. These are all things that can easily be done without risking reclassification but as a manufacturer I think he is tied to keep things very close to what was approved, what we do after the purchase is up to us to make sure what we do is legal.
This is not all that dissimilar to what Wolverine was doing before with not offering restricted length uppers for the XCR-L, all it takes is one dummy to put that short upper on a non restricted lower then get caught with it and it could ruin it for everyone.
I don't think he's saying you can't do any of those things yourself since it's your rifle and it's none of his business what happens to it after it leaves the shop. If all you do is change the trigger by building a housing that requires no modifications to the lower receiver then I can't see how this could cause any issues but he may still void your warranty (but I doubt it).
If you can find someone that can build you a housing then go for it as long as you are willing to pay through the nose to get it done.
I understand you wanting to change it but you have to give up on the idea that ATRS is going to help you do it.
onetwentyish
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Fencerow: Oh I know what facts are. And I need no convincing of them. For a guy so bent on facts then you should know that I am well aware of the FACT that the lower receiver is the only regulated part as I have stated it here different times. You should also then be aware of the FACT that I have said I'm not against 120ish's desire to have a different manufacturer of trigger installed as long as the lower is not altered. I need no convincing of the facts in relation to this gun.
As for the fitment of the receivers being the only determining factor in having a new firearm classified, I'm sure deep down you agree with me that they would find a way to play the varient card, hence you're once again continued desire to remain here trying to convince me, umm I mean convince yourself, with your fruitless facts. You state that with facts proof is not required yet you continue on to try and prove to me your facts. Once again there are facts and then there is reality. Seems you are not ready to believe this yet and are in fact the one here that you are working ever so hard to convince.
Like I said, when you can accomplish what I have suggested that you try and do, I'm in for two. But until then your facts that you are trying so hard to believe in are fruitless. But keep trying to convince yourself there is no difference between logic and reality. I know for a fact there is.
Onetwentyish, good luck on your endeavors. I hope you are successful in accomplishing your goal as there is nothing stopping you. I look forward to seeing the end result
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If a trigger group alone was enough to claim a variant clause, a lot more firearms would be AR15 variants according to the lab.
If a manufacturer changing a trigger group makes it a concern for reclassification, why wouldn't the same concern apply to an end user making the modification?
Its a rhetorical question. The answer is it wouldn't for either party. Because classification doesn't work that way.
If a manufacturer changing a trigger group makes it a concern for reclassification, why wouldn't the same concern apply to an end user making the modification?
Its a rhetorical question. The answer is it wouldn't for either party. Because classification doesn't work that way.
I thought we were talking about receiver fitment being the only factor in consideration for a firearm being a varitent? That's the fact you've been arguing isn't it? Now you're saying the determining factor is trigger groups? You really need to get your facts straight. We weren't arguing about trigger groups. I agree that trigger groups is a non issue if no receiver alterations are made. Did you simply miss that or choose to ignore it? I've only ever stressed the point that this firearm was only DESIGNED from the factory to work with the Timney trigger groups and that unqualified people should not try to change things in regards to the trigger. Have you had yours out? I have and I can tell you there is a reason they recommend people not to touch it. To someone unqualified to reposition it properly it poses a huge safety concern. There's more at play here as to why they say not to change to different trigger groups than your simple reliance on facts or arguments about classifications. Or do you choose to simply say to rely on the facts when you have no other way to justify your point? That's what I thought. As far as it being as simple as receiver fitment alone being the determining factor, in reality you know I'm right. Rick also knows that on paper you are probably correct but in reality you are not. He chose to accept that what is on paper isn't always to be taken at face value and instead choose to capitalize on his realism. His realism has became fruitful. Your simple reliance on facts has not and will not. Or maybe that's why you switched the focus off of receiver fitment and derailed our debate with trigger groups. That's right, I thought I smelled defeat.
