JP MicroFit Pins Review

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beastmode

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Got a new DD M4V7s... beautiful gun. Added a ambi Raptor charging handle, Timney trigger, Phase 5 V2 bolt release. But then the wobble between upper and lower started to pick me. I asked A###xx Armory to import a set of oversize JP Pins. The difference is unbelievable. And no weird, decaying plastic parts in the lower. The takedown pin still comes out with a bullet tip, but the pivot pin needs to be punched out. No big deal, at lease for me
 
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Wobble between upper and lower has no effect on performance. Once a magazine is inserted the wobble vanishes..
 
Lastgun said:
Try and tell that to your zero at 300 yards.
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Try reading a book or taking a class, the wobble has ZERO effect on performance. This has been tested and studied by many with greater knowledge and experience than you or I and there is no difference.
 
Kidd X said:
Wobble between upper and lower has no effect on performance. Once a magazine is inserted the wobble vanishes..
Click to expand...

Kidd X said:
Try reading a book or taking a class, the wobble has ZERO effect on performance. This has been tested and studied by many with greater knowledge and experience than you or I and there is no difference.
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Can't people have personal preferences? Do you really need to chit on everyone's opinions? The OP didn't state it made him more accurate, let him enjoy his pins.

Lastgun said:
Try and tell that to your zero at 300 yards.
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And it won't be the wobble effecting your rifles zero. From everything I've read and been taught it should not have an effect on zero, unless your OCD is so strong that the wobble makes you lose concentration lol.
 
Did you try an accuwedge? I am sure Kidd X will tell me the accuwedge "is junk and that I should read a book and take a class" oh, and "that I have ZERO knowledge and experience compared to his supreme everything" but it did stop some excessive play between one of my lower/uppers.
 
Kidd X said:
Try reading a book or taking a class, the wobble has ZERO effect on performance. This has been tested and studied by many with greater knowledge and experience than you or I and there is no difference.
Click to expand...

Instead of reading a book or taking some ones word on it how about you do a little test of your own and see for your self how wobble between upper and lower effects your zero.

Take your loose fitting AR and mount the lower portion in a solid gun vice...Focus the reticle or red dot on a distant object...Now with a free hand while you peer down your optic at the distant object move your upper carefully the amount the slop will allow it to move...A real enlightening experience to see how a little slop in the upper and lower changes the POI of your rifle...If you are half assed at handling a rifle you can even see the effect of slop without a rifle vise by just using your bipod and a rear bag.

If you take note of the POI shift from the play between upper and lower you will find that the amount of POI shift you are seeing down range is very close to what your rifle is capable of for accuracy when shooting groups.

A loose fitting stock will also effect your POI...Seeing is believing.
 
If there is 'slop' between the upper and lower, the shooter only has to hold onto the upper to remove it and any perceived poa/poi change.
If you shoot your ARs with the lower locked in a vice :)p) or more realistically only holding onto the lower with the upper supported on a bipod, you can do the pin, wedge or loading the bipod should work.

Even when shooting from a bipod (which is rarely), I hold the upper.
Sights are attached to the upper, and for all intents and purposes, the upper is the gun. Rounds go where the upper is pointing.
 
To settle the debate for those who can follow along:

The point of impact may change because where the optic moves so does the barrel.

The point of aim may change because, yet again, the optic moves and so will the barrel.

The point of aim will match the point of impact every time unless something else is a factor

It is up to the shooter to do what they may to ensure the point of aim is where they want.
 
Kratos said:
Can't people have personal preferences? Do you really need to chit on everyone's opinions? The OP didn't state it made him more accurate, let him enjoy his pins.



And it won't be the wobble effecting your rifles zero. From everything I've read and been taught it should not have an effect on zero, unless your OCD is so strong that the wobble makes you lose concentration lol.
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He can have his pins, but they do nothing to improve performance so they're window dressing.

juancarlos said:
Did you try an accuwedge? I am sure Kidd X will tell me the accuwedge "is junk and that I should read a book and take a class" oh, and "that I have ZERO knowledge and experience compared to his supreme everything" but it did stop some excessive play between one of my lower/uppers.
Click to expand...

Accu wedge is a waste of time, clearly you don't shoot enough or haven't researched them enough to know that. There is no excessive play, the play is within spec(if your rifle isn't a total POS) and the play is eliminated once you insert a magazine, it is also eliminated when you grasp the forend and seat the rifle into your shoulder, it is also eliminated if you decide to sling up, and it's also eliminated if you load the bipod... Apparently no one in this thread is aware of this because they all play with their rifles without a magazine inserted which means they never shoot or they only use one hand.

Lastgun said:
Instead of reading a book or taking some ones word on it how about you do a little test of your own and see for your self how wobble between upper and lower effects your zero.

Take your loose fitting AR and mount the lower portion in a solid gun vice...Focus the reticle or red dot on a distant object...Now with a free hand while you peer down your optic at the distant object move your upper carefully the amount the slop will allow it to move...A real enlightening experience to see how a little slop in the upper and lower changes the POI of your rifle...If you are half assed at handling a rifle you can even see the effect of slop without a rifle vise by just using your bipod and a rear bag.

If you take note of the POI shift from the play between upper and lower you will find that the amount of POI shift you are seeing down range is very close to what your rifle is capable of for accuracy when shooting groups.

A loose fitting stock will also effect your POI...Seeing is believing.
Click to expand...

Again, this issue has been researched by many agencies/departments/individuals with far more experience than you or I have and the answer is the same, the wobble makes zero difference with regards to performance. I don't need to jump off a building to confirm there's a gravitational force...

beltfed said:
If there is 'slop' between the upper and lower, the shooter only has to hold onto the upper to remove it and any perceived poa/poi change.
If you shoot your ARs with the lower locked in a vice :)p) or more realistically only holding onto the lower with the upper supported on a bipod, you can do the pin, wedge or loading the bipod should work.

Even when shooting from a bipod (which is rarely), I hold the upper.
Sights are attached to the upper, and for all intents and purposes, the upper is the gun. Rounds go where the upper is pointing.
Click to expand...

Beltfed shoots a lot, and knows what he's talking about. There is no issue with the wobble.

Aniest said:
To settle the debate for those who can follow along:

The point of impact may change because where the optic moves so does the barrel.

The point of aim may change because, yet again, the optic moves and so will the barrel.

The point of aim will match the point of impact every time unless something else is a factor

It is up to the shooter to do what they may to ensure the point of aim is where they want.
Click to expand...

There's no debate, there is knowing and there is not knowing. The answer is that the wobble makes no difference.

here's a link to a book by an accomplished shooter and I believe gunsmith. The quote below is from the book and comes from none other than Bill Wylde, yes the guy who designed the Wylde chamber and is also a very accomplished shooter.
https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-AR15-Mouse-That-Roared/dp/0962692565

A quote on upper to lower receive fit: "You can get them too tight, but you can't get them too loose to shoot well", Bill Wylde. Source: The Competitive AR15, Glen Zediker, Page 56. Bill Wylde is an expert on Service Rifles, barrel design, etc. He's fired some incredibly small groups with the AR15.
 
Kidd X said:
Accu wedge is a waste of time, clearly you don't shoot enough or haven't researched them enough to know that. There is no excessive play, the play is within spec(if your rifle isn't a total POS) and the play is eliminated once you insert a magazine, it is also eliminated when you grasp the forend and seat the rifle into your shoulder, it is also eliminated if you decide to sling up, and it's also eliminated if you load the bipod... Apparently no one in this thread is aware of this because they all play with their rifles without a magazine inserted which means they never shoot or they only use one hand.
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lol, it's like I can see the future.
 
Beltfed and Aniest are absolutely correct and know the effect slop has on accuracy and describes ways to alleviate it without tightening fitment between upper and lower.

KidX is correct in believing that slop does not affect performance...To his level.

If you want ultimate accuracy and don't want to have to cross your fingers and hope you are holding onto the rifle just right every shot...You need a tight fit between upper and lower...That's just the way it works in the physical world.
 
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I'm a bit surprised that anyone even read the review lol -- wasn't claiming that pins would improve accuracy. DD is more accurate than me anyways. Simply like my AR to not wobble. End of. Figured some other CGNers might be in the same boat. Accuwedge, earplugs, etc not something I want in my rifle. Not sure I understand the need to invent an issue and insult people. Party on dudes
 
How much were them pins? Glad they worked well for you. Sounds like an easy upgrade to alleviate some OCD. Performance and all else aside if it made your rifle better for you then it was a worthwhile upgrade. I'm one of those people that spend way too much time tinkering with my rifles and not enough time shooting them, between the kids, job, bands, unavailable shooting buddies and so on I don't get out anywhere close to as much as I would like. So I might as well try to improve my rifles in any way I can, better than doing nothing with them. I get the arguments against them being necessary, but if they made his rifle better in his eyes then they are are money well spent.
 
Its pretty important that everything is tight on a m99, with the factory wobble you cant even hold it on target dry firing (1-2 moa jump as the sear releases), jam some duct tape in there and its fixed

I would assume that an ar does the same thing to a lesser extent
 
Lastgun said:
Beltfed and Aniest are absolutely correct and know the effect slop has on accuracy and describes ways to alleviate it without tightening fitment between upper and lower.

KidX is correct in believing that slop does not affect performance...To his level.

If you want ultimate accuracy and don't want to have to cross your fingers and hope you are holding onto the rifle just right every shot...You need a tight fit between upper and lower...That's just the way it works in the physical world.
Click to expand...

There's no hoping there is a proper hold/form and there is not. Apparently the evidence collected by Bill Wylde means nothing and he's simply a nobody, and Beltfed is an idiot as well.:rolleyes: You don't know what you don't know.

beastmode said:
I'm a bit surprised that anyone even read the review lol -- wasn't claiming that pins would improve accuracy. DD is more accurate than me anyways. Simply like my AR to not wobble. End of. Figured some other CGNers might be in the same boat. Accuwedge, earplugs, etc not something I want in my rifle. Not sure I understand the need to invent an issue and insult people. Party on dudes
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Not knocking on your choice of pins, just thought I would point out for others than eliminating upper/lower wobble has zero effect on performance. It does remove one more OCD annoyance however.;)

Uisge said:
How much were them pins? Glad they worked well for you. Sounds like an easy upgrade to alleviate some OCD. Performance and all else aside if it made your rifle better for you then it was a worthwhile upgrade. I'm one of those people that spend way too much time tinkering with my rifles and not enough time shooting them, between the kids, job, bands, unavailable shooting buddies and so on I don't get out anywhere close to as much as I would like. So I might as well try to improve my rifles in any way I can, better than doing nothing with them. I get the arguments against them being necessary, but if they made his rifle better in his eyes then they are are money well spent.
Click to expand...

You can't make something better without a a quantitative value to compare it to. Changing something for/to something you like is entirely subjective and cannot be proven either way. An improvement would indicate a performance increase which can be proven or validated with quantitative data and is entirely objective. As for something being necessary that is entirely different altogether. No one said the pins were or were not necessary. Beastmode indicated that he likes the lack of wobble after installing the pins. I said the pins will make zero difference in performance. Both are statements and both are correct but both are not mutually exclusive to one another.
 
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