Canada's new C6A1 Flex General purpose MG

bros

Regular
Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
32   0   0
I know it's not a milsurp...but had to fit it in some where.
Just read a news release from our gov't on Colt Canada's website.
Our DND is ordering 1148 new badly needed C6 GPMG's from Colt Canada.....contract is worth 32.1 million!!!
I had to get the calculator out for that one....comes to.......$27,874.56/each.......wowsers!!!!!!!!!
Boy I feel so good when they hammer out a hard bargain. Your tax dollars again hard at work!!
I wonder who negotiated that deal??
 
Isn't that price inclusive of training, parts etc??? It's the life cycle of the firearm, not just the initial purchase...

Cheers
Jay
 
Ya you have to remember we don't just buy a thousand guns. We also buy millions of spare parts and training packages.

Repair and maintenance is usually done at varying levels (1st, 2nd and 3rd line repair) depending on the defect and work required.
 
In addition to spare parts, training etc. I hope the new C6's also come with brand new SF kits. The indirect sight, tripod etc. is not cheap.
 
Its also the cost of keeping a 'centre of excellence' with the skill, equipment, knowledge available and open in Canada. If they are continuing to meet/maintain the quality of Diemaco (which was outstanding!) -- then this is a fair deal imo. I hope they get more contracts ....

I was a very big fan of Diemaco's quality standards
 
Ya you have to remember we don't just buy a thousand guns. We also buy millions of spare parts and training packages.

Repair and maintenance is usually done at varying levels (1st, 2nd and 3rd line repair) depending on the defect and work required.

Isn't that price inclusive of training, parts etc??? It's the life cycle of the firearm, not just the initial purchase...

Cheers
Jay

Yup, it's not just UPS dropping them at Canada's door. That price includes a lot of support and spares inventory.
 
Weren't the current C6s made by FN Herstal or were some provided by Colt already?

AFAIK all C6 have come from FNH. My unit has some of the newest in the country.

Colt Canada has been providing some spare parts as well as overhaul services for a few years at least.
 
I know it's not a milsurp...but had to fit it in some where.
Just read a news release from our gov't on Colt Canada's website.
Our DND is ordering 1148 new badly needed C6 GPMG's from Colt Canada.....contract is worth 32.1 million!!!
I had to get the calculator out for that one....comes to.......$27,874.56/each.......wowsers!!!!!!!!!
Boy I feel so good when they hammer out a hard bargain. Your tax dollars again hard at work!!
I wonder who negotiated that deal??

Yawn.

1) Colt Canada doesn't have a mass production line for the GPMG C6A1. The old ones we had were from FN. The Army wants to have a strategic capability to make these, so they are paying a premium for Colt to set up a production line. The cost you calculated includes all the start up costs to build a small arms assembly line.

2) The cost also includes many years of in-service support.

3) It includes simulators, training, manuals, etc. to support multiple brigade groups.

4) It also includes integration to vehicle systems, helicopters, etc.

What do you think your Honda Civic would cost if Honda only built 1148 of them ever?
 
Brand new guns and the price includes spares parts and support.

You know, I wish the damned DND procurement press releases would SAY that.

People outside of the military would be (IMHO) much happier with prices paid for military items if they know that the price per unit also includes spare parts and support.

Doing the simple math on the contract price per unit reveals that yeah, we could get them from FN USA a HELL of a lot cheaper, but that wouldn't include the spares or support.
 
You know, I wish the damned DND procurement press releases would SAY that.

People outside of the military would be (IMHO) much happier with prices paid for military items if they know that the price per unit also includes spare parts and support.

Doing the simple math on the contract price per unit reveals that yeah, we could get them from FN USA a HELL of a lot cheaper, but that wouldn't include the spares or support.

Well said!!!

On the other hand I'm a Ranger in ICRPG.....I've got a little bit of an idea what it's like when acquiring new kit, enough said!!!
 
You know, I wish the damned DND procurement press releases would SAY that.

People outside of the military would be (IMHO) much happier with prices paid for military items if they know that the price per unit also includes spare parts and support.

Doing the simple math on the contract price per unit reveals that yeah, we could get them from FN USA a HELL of a lot cheaper, but that wouldn't include the spares or support.

The actual contracts and tender solicitations are public. I can't find any mention of a recent contract c6 gpmgs, but perhaps the government will be releasing the tender soon, and this is the governments advanced notice.

The last time the government bought these machine guns was in 2015. You can view the tender specifications, and additional info here. https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public...1b4c/ABES.PROD.PW__BM.B015.E25188.EBSU000.PDF

In addition to the 100 guns they bought, they also bought 100 spare barrels, 100 cleaning kits, 100 soft cloth ammo bags and 100 manuals. In order to be awarded the contract though, you would have to submit 3 sample firearms for robust testing, which may or may not result in the destruction of those firearms. Just read through the acceptance testing that will be done and try to imagine how much that would cost as the seller, and then you have to amortize those costs over the total number of units purchased. Often times the firearm supplier has to supply the ammo for the test, depending on how DND sets it up. IN addition to submitting your prices for the tender, you often have to submit thousands of pages of technical documentation to substantiate your claims that the gun can do what DND says it must be able to do, and often times that will incur 3rd party testing, at the bidders expense.

So imagine you walk into your local gun shop, and ask to buy a 1000 dollar rifle, but that you want the gun store to hire a gun smith to conduct a complete inspection, including firing 200 rounds to determine the reliability and accuracy of the firearm. Add in 2 decades worth of spare parts and tech support, which usually involves enough spare parts to build a whole bunch of new guns from scratch. Would it still be a 1000 dollar gun?

Without a contract, or even a tender, its hard to say what might drive the cost of these guns up to 27 thousand dollars each, but if they included any kind of electro optic devices that price could go to the moon in a hurry.

But for another example, look at the new ranger rifles. You can go to SAKO and get the civilian version of the custom CTR that they proposed for the ranger rifle, and it will cost less than 3k. DNDs per unit purchase price was over 12k, and that was for the lowest cost compliant solution. But they included a pretty serious hard case, soft case, spare mags, cleaning kit, a sea container full of spare parts, training and a not-your-average lifetime warranty.

DND is a very demanding customer. They ask sellers to jump through all kinds of hoops at their own expense just to respond to a request for proposal, and those are costs that the company has to try to recover in the sale in order to remain profitable and in business. And that's not even including the fact that DND can make you spend millions of dollars preparing a multi thousand page technical proposal, independent testing, submission of samples for destructive testing, and retains the right to not even award a contract to anyone.

WHen people talk about our broken procurement system, this is one of the examples, and at the end of the day our broken procurement system results in delays of getting the equipment to the good lads and lassies that need it, inefficient, unpredictable and unpermissive marketplace for businesses, and ultimately added costs to the tax payers.
 
The actual contracts and tender solicitations are public. I can't find any mention of a recent contract c6 gpmgs, but perhaps the government will be releasing the tender soon, and this is the governments advanced notice.

The last time the government bought these machine guns was in 2015. You can view the tender specifications, and additional info here. https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public...1b4c/ABES.PROD.PW__BM.B015.E25188.EBSU000.PDF

In addition to the 100 guns they bought, they also bought 100 spare barrels, 100 cleaning kits, 100 soft cloth ammo bags and 100 manuals. In order to be awarded the contract though, you would have to submit 3 sample firearms for robust testing, which may or may not result in the destruction of those firearms. Just read through the acceptance testing that will be done and try to imagine how much that would cost as the seller, and then you have to amortize those costs over the total number of units purchased. Often times the firearm supplier has to supply the ammo for the test, depending on how DND sets it up. IN addition to submitting your prices for the tender, you often have to submit thousands of pages of technical documentation to substantiate your claims that the gun can do what DND says it must be able to do, and often times that will incur 3rd party testing, at the bidders expense.

So imagine you walk into your local gun shop, and ask to buy a 1000 dollar rifle, but that you want the gun store to hire a gun smith to conduct a complete inspection, including firing 200 rounds to determine the reliability and accuracy of the firearm. Add in 2 decades worth of spare parts and tech support, which usually involves enough spare parts to build a whole bunch of new guns from scratch. Would it still be a 1000 dollar gun?

Without a contract, or even a tender, its hard to say what might drive the cost of these guns up to 27 thousand dollars each, but if they included any kind of electro optic devices that price could go to the moon in a hurry.

But for another example, look at the new ranger rifles. You can go to SAKO and get the civilian version of the custom CTR that they proposed for the ranger rifle, and it will cost less than 3k. DNDs per unit purchase price was over 12k, and that was for the lowest cost compliant solution. But they included a pretty serious hard case, soft case, spare mags, cleaning kit, a sea container full of spare parts, training and a not-your-average lifetime warranty.

DND is a very demanding customer. They ask sellers to jump through all kinds of hoops at their own expense just to respond to a request for proposal, and those are costs that the company has to try to recover in the sale in order to remain profitable and in business. And that's not even including the fact that DND can make you spend millions of dollars preparing a multi thousand page technical proposal, independent testing, submission of samples for destructive testing, and retains the right to not even award a contract to anyone.

WHen people talk about our broken procurement system, this is one of the examples, and at the end of the day our broken procurement system results in delays of getting the equipment to the good lads and lassies that need it, inefficient, unpredictable and unpermissive marketplace for businesses, and ultimately added costs to the tax payers.

The contract was only announced end of July. I'm pretty sure it was a directed procurement (i.e. sole source), so you would not see it on BuySell.
 
WHen people talk about our broken procurement system, this is one of the examples, and at the end of the day our broken procurement system results in delays of getting the equipment to the good lads and lassies that need it, inefficient, unpredictable and unpermissive marketplace for businesses, and ultimately added costs to the tax payers.

When ppl talk about a broken procurement system, it's because they don't understand the issues driving procurement timelines to be long. The truth of the matter is that the Federal Accountability Act (Conservatives, circa 2006) doubled the duration of the average defence acquisition by adding all sorts of extra governance hoops, long rounds of mandatory industry engagement, independent third party reviews, more frequent and time consuming visits from the OAG, and all other manner of bureaucratic nonsense. Add to that the fact that DND's staff levels has been reduced by over 1/3 since 1998, but program workload has more than doubled after the decade of darkness ended. David Perry published a great article about this last year - worth the google. Before a project can deliver anything, the government changes and everything gets put on hold while the new government produces a defence white paper that likely cancels all the old projects and makes the department start over.

Rigorous product testing and long in-service support tails aren't the problem, they are essential. In military hardware, durability and reliability are the single most important characteristics of the gear - the forces use their stuff VERY hard and if it fails because it's shoddy, defective, or cheap - our soldiers die. That's not a broken procurement system, that's called a debt we owe our men/women in uniform - and industry has to help pay that debt to the people that protect the system enabling them to exist and make profit.
 
Back
Top Bottom