OCW vs Ladder Test

Looking at the chart above A,B,C & then D,E,F are the same charge weights but seating depth are different. To me this COL is basically changing the combustion space size, therefore changing the pressure produced, thus effecting the velocity and the rate of acceleration of the bullet down the barrel.

So the way I'm thinking what the seating depth change does is a way of finding the barrel time that is considered a node. This can be done with powder charge. This does not entertain the issue of ES/SD. This is looked after mechanically and weight of the charge as it relates to OCW. So two things need to be addressed at once, OBT and OCW.

From Accurate shooter.com

Pressure happens based on two things. One is the burn of the powder making pressure/gas, the other is the when (or time component) of that pressure and gas. The reason the when matters is that as soon as the pressure starts building the bullet starts moving. When the bullet moves the available space for the expanding gas is enlarged. Since the burn is accelerating and the bullet is also moving enlarging the space, you've got a moving target for where/when Pmax is going to occur. The longer it takes to hit Pmax the bigger the space available to do so, and as a result the more powder you can use and the more energy involved. This is precisely the reason why for a given max pressure, slower burning powders make higher velocities.

Once you are past Pmax the bullet is accelerating ever faster, the volume rapidly expands, and pressure drops as a result of the expanded volume. Simultaneously the powder, once past the Z1 line is in the "fizzle" stage and is mostly burned up already.

When the Z1 line and the P-max lines overlap on the graph, and the OBT is on a node, the loads produced are usually the best the platform will produce.

This is how a friend and myself approach load development.
 
The point of the chart is to show that even when velocities numbers (ES/SD) are the same, the results on target can be vastly different.

Velocity on its own is not a good indicator of where the bullets are going to land.

That's all...

Jerry
 
Still don't have this done! Weather here has been solidly sh!t. Winds 40-60 and completely erratic: head-on, gusts, tailwinds, sideways everywhere.

Need to get his done and sorted so I can load up rounds over the winter.
 
The point of the chart is to show that even when velocities numbers (ES/SD) are the same, the results on target can be vastly different.

Velocity on its own is not a good indicator of where the bullets are going to land.

That's all...

Jerry


Yes, velocity does not entertain the rate of acceleration of the bullet in the barrel, therefore for a given velocity the barrel time can be off due to the different acceleration rates. Different powders can attenuate this problem.
 
Yes, velocity does not entertain the rate of acceleration of the bullet in the barrel, therefore for a given velocity the barrel time can be off due to the different acceleration rates. Different powders can attenuate this problem.

Pretty sure that forms the basis for the "positive compensation" theories.

Some shooters today have very limited distances to test.. like 100yds/m. They want to tune for LR shooting so the only option is to couple target with chronograph (a good chronograph).

If they happen to load in the right powder charge node, the velocity tuning and small groups can lead to LR success. If they find the wrong node, they may get small 100yd/m groups, fantastic velocity data... horrible LR accuracy.

Unfortunately, they may not know they have a problem until they are shooting LR at a match or outing.

And that sucks...

Jerry
 
If I can get a good load down (testing at 200m) I'll see not long after what it performs like at long range because we have fairly easy access to 1500m+.
While I have shot to date to 980m my goal for this season , and time is getting so short here now in northern climates, is to maintain consistent hits at 1000m: a feat I have not had success with yet with my .308w.

My 338lm will be my go-to beyond 1000m, or at least in part until my new loads with better LR bullets for my 308w get sorted out.
 
Bullets I have personally shot or seen shot to 1000yds and beyond:

hrn 168BTHP... did great at 1000yds, got tired at 1200yds
Hrn 168gr Amax... solid way out there.

Sierra 175gr MK... almost 1400yds without too much fuss
Nosler 175gr RDF... have heard positive things but have not shot to verify.
Hrn 178gr Amax.... have not tested the ELD version but should be fine.

Berger 185gr Juggernaut... likely my top pick out of the above for mag fed ammo.

For single loading, 195gr MK, 200gr and 200-20X, 210gr VLD, 210gr MK

If you can get any of the above to shoot sub MOA at 200 to 300, they will track to 1000m with ease. Lowest vertical on target as possible. 1/2 MOA vertical with MOA windage will be let you hit alot of stuff.... MOA vertical with 1/2 MOA windage....that can be a royal PITA as distance grows.

Sometimes, it matters more the bullet you use then the velocity you launch it at.... Good luck.

Jerry
 
Thanks Jerry: I have been using 168gr SMK's in my .308 out to 980m. Got some 175SMK's as well as some Hornady 178's to load up for it too.

For the 338LM I have 285Hornady and 300 gr SMK's.

All that's missing is some decent weather on my days off!
 
Bullets I have personally shot or seen shot to 1000yds and beyond:

hrn 168BTHP... did great at 1000yds, got tired at 1200yds
Hrn 168gr Amax... solid way out there.

Sierra 175gr MK... almost 1400yds without too much fuss
Nosler 175gr RDF... have heard positive things but have not shot to verify.
Hrn 178gr Amax.... have not tested the ELD version but should be fine.

Berger 185gr Juggernaut... likely my top pick out of the above for mag fed ammo.

For single loading, 195gr MK, 200gr and 200-20X, 210gr VLD, 210gr MK

If you can get any of the above to shoot sub MOA at 200 to 300, they will track to 1000m with ease. Lowest vertical on target as possible. 1/2 MOA vertical with MOA windage will be let you hit alot of stuff.... MOA vertical with 1/2 MOA windage....that can be a royal PITA as distance grows.

Sometimes, it matters more the bullet you use then the velocity you launch it at.... Good luck.

Jerry

Would you suggest then that 300m is the doorway to LR?

I have regular access to 300m, only rare, usually competitive access, to ranges beyond. Can I remain confident that my loads the print well at 300 will continue to do so out to 800 and 1000?

Further, I shoot a 300WSM in F open. I can typically drive 210 gr Sierre HPBT MK at around 3k FPS.

Would I be better off with a lighter bullet going much faster, or should I stick with the heaviest I can reliably shoot?

Best load I have developed with the 210s so far produced a 10 shot group with a 0.904" vertical spread at 300m, and 1.1" spread horizontal. Have yet to reach out any further with this load.
 
Thanks Jerry: I have been using 168gr SMK's in my .308 out to 980m. Got some 175SMK's as well as some Hornady 178's to load up for it too.

For the 338LM I have 285Hornady and 300 gr SMK's.

All that's missing is some decent weather on my days off!

Congrats, you are one of the few that has made the 168gr MK get out that far :)

I think you will find the 175/178s far more consistent... problem solved.

Jerry
 
Would you suggest then that 300m is the doorway to LR?

I have regular access to 300m, only rare, usually competitive access, to ranges beyond. Can I remain confident that my loads the print well at 300 will continue to do so out to 800 and 1000?

Further, I shoot a 300WSM in F open. I can typically drive 210 gr Sierre HPBT MK at around 3k FPS.

Would I be better off with a lighter bullet going much faster, or should I stick with the heaviest I can reliably shoot?

Best load I have developed with the 210s so far produced a 10 shot group with a 0.904" vertical spread at 300m, and 1.1" spread horizontal. Have yet to reach out any further with this load.

300yds/m is far enough for the bullets to diverge so you can see small changes in your load tuning. Close enough that you can aim precisely, not too badly affected by winds and mirage.

My range goes to 250yds so that is my "doorway".

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/load-tuning.281/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/precision-reloading-for-long-range-hunting.17/

This will help... Yes, I have had alot of success testing at 250 to 300 and doing well at 1000yds... but it never hurts to test furhter. At this distance, you can tune out the vertical and if you have 1/3 MOA accuracy, it is going to fly well. If you get a good chronie and ES/SD numbers are good, then that is the icing on the cake.

That load with the 210MK should do very well at 1000yds. I have competed 2 seasons with this bullet out of 308 going 257'ish fps... you have a ton more speed then me and I had great success at 1000yds.

What are you using for a scale? outside neck turn? Anneal? Primer? Type of rest? Rear bag?

Can you tune for lower vertical? Yes. When my rig is working well, the group at 250yds is 1 or 2 cals tall. Does it really matter? until you are competing for X's, no.....

I believe load tuning as I have suggested out to 300m proves the load..... It should print very well at 800 and 900.... if it doesn't at 1000yds, I would blame the bullet

But that is another story.... and Yes, I am working on solutions...

Jerry

PS, if you need some 210MK's got a box of 500 on sale.
 
300yds/m is far enough for the bullets to diverge so you can see small changes in your load tuning. Close enough that you can aim precisely, not too badly affected by winds and mirage.

My range goes to 250yds so that is my "doorway".

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/load-tuning.281/

https://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/precision-reloading-for-long-range-hunting.17/

This will help... Yes, I have had alot of success testing at 250 to 300 and doing well at 1000yds... but it never hurts to test furhter. At this distance, you can tune out the vertical and if you have 1/3 MOA accuracy, it is going to fly well. If you get a good chronie and ES/SD numbers are good, then that is the icing on the cake.

That load with the 210MK should do very well at 1000yds. I have competed 2 seasons with this bullet out of 308 going 257'ish fps... you have a ton more speed then me and I had great success at 1000yds.

What are you using for a scale? outside neck turn? Anneal? Primer? Type of rest? Rear bag?

Can you tune for lower vertical? Yes. When my rig is working well, the group at 250yds is 1 or 2 cals tall. Does it really matter? until you are competing for X's, no.....

I believe load tuning as I have suggested out to 300m proves the load..... It should print very well at 800 and 900.... if it doesn't at 1000yds, I would blame the bullet

But that is another story.... and Yes, I am working on solutions...

Jerry

PS, if you need some 210MK's got a box of 500 on sale.

Scale is an acculab something or other with 0.02 grain accuracy.

No neck turn. No anneal, cause i dont have an annealer. I do have 600 cases that are due for annealing though, i just set them aside and move on to the next batch of virgin brass.

Primer is CCI large rifle magnum.

Front rest is a sinclair f class bi pod. Rear rest is a rice filled sock. Lol. Im cheap.

I just want ammo that is good enough that when i suck, i know i camt blame it on the ammo.
 
The gear you are using should give you some very good results. Obviously, FTR bipod tech keeps changing and the Sinclair is rarely seen on the line these days... too much flex.

The rear bag would be more stable with a better set up but if you are shooting consistently in that 1" ish range at 300m, gear is not your problem.

Do check neck clearance with your chamber... I try and drop a bullet into my fired necks and if they fall in, all good. If there is resistance, consider outside neck turning as the necks have thickened too much.

Jerry
 
The gear you are using should give you some very good results. Obviously, FTR bipod tech keeps changing and the Sinclair is rarely seen on the line these days... too much flex.

The rear bag would be more stable with a better set up but if you are shooting consistently in that 1" ish range at 300m, gear is not your problem.

Do check neck clearance with your chamber... I try and drop a bullet into my fired necks and if they fall in, all good. If there is resistance, consider outside neck turning as the necks have thickened too much.

Jerry

Just checked a batch of 50 fired cases. They are on firing #4. Only one had slight resistance, but still easily went into the fired case. Both fired and reloaded cases show less than 0,001 run out on the case neck or the bullet, so I don't think I need to be worried about concentricity. I use the redding bushing dies to control neck tension. never considered the actual thickness of the case to be a problem. I will keep an eye on it.
 
with bushing neck sizing, turning necks becomes even more important. as brass flows, the case neck thickens at varying rates and in varying locations through all the cases.

It maybe concentric but I bet, neck tension is changing and that is not good for vertical control.

Jerry
 
IMG_1406.jpg

Was doing final sight in and testing of my load I am taking to Washington this weekend for an F Class match. I was using the left point of the diamond as my "zero" or Target center - it is easier to see the bullet holes in the white vs in the black lines of the target. It was gusty and I chased the winds and then the mirage made a big change... thought, maybe I will take a bigger hold off and the far right impact was exactly where I aimed... figures.

Distance was 250yds... with the proper load tuning, and rests, there is no reason why you can't dial down your vertical to essentially zero.

If you find your shots going up and down around your aiming center and you want to correct, rests play a huge role in this... as does your stock shape and layout. Of course, other things like load and barrel and scope play a role too but hopefully, you have sorted that out first.

Not entirely necessary but sure builds confidence when the next target is 8 to 10 fields away.

Jerry
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1406.jpg
    IMG_1406.jpg
    94.7 KB · Views: 148
So I finally got stage one of load testing done this past weekend:Temp was 14C and test range was 215m with light but steady winds. Both loads measure 3.728 COAL

Load 1: 285gr Hornady Match BTHP: Best group node was produced with 85.5, 86 and 86.5grains H1000 measured 0.619" at 215M (this was the higher velocity node) with no signs of pressure even at max published load
Load 2 : 300gr Sierra SMK: Best group was 0.705 at 76, 76.5 7 77gr of H4831SC. Again no pressure signs even at max loads

With regards to the 285's I will run batches of five at each mentioned weight and measure those groups and go from there but will not chase it down too much further: as Litz implies says: you'd be better served practicing with your known decent load than forever striving to reduce your current MOA load if it is already accurate (below 1 moa). I am confident however that I can tweak the 300gr load further.

I am very please at how my rifle shoots the 285's and to be honest a little disappointed at the 300gr. I went into it thinking the 300SMK would outshoot the Hornady Match 285's: that being said I may even run a ladder test with 300SMK pushed by H1000 to further level the playing field with regards to the load development. The reason I did not do it this time is because I have only 4lbs of H1000 but a good supply of H4831SC.

Both current loads are still very promising though producing ~1/3 moa accuracy.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
So I finally got stage one of load testing done this past weekend:Temp was 14C and test range was 215m with light but steady winds. Both loads measure 3.728 COAL

Load 1: 285gr Hornady Match BTHP: Best group node was produced with 85.5, 86 and 86.5grains H1000 measured 0.619" at 215M (this was the higher velocity node) with no signs of pressure even at max published load
Load 2 : 300gr Sierra SMK: Best group was 0.705 at 76, 76.5 7 77gr of H4831SC. Again no pressure signs even at max loads

With regards to the 285's I will run batches of five at each mentioned weight and measure those groups and go from there but will not chase it down too much further: as Litz implies says: you'd be better served practicing with your known decent load than forever striving to reduce your current MOA load if it is already accurate (below 1 moa). I am confident however that I can tweak the 300gr load further.

I am very please at how my rifle shoots the 285's and to be honest a little disappointed at the 300gr. I went into it thinking the 300SMK would outshoot the Hornady Match 285's: that being said I may even run a ladder test with 300SMK pushed by H1000 to further level the playing field with regards to the load development. The reason I did not do it this time is because I have only 4lbs of H1000 but a good supply of H4831SC.

Both current loads are still very promising though producing ~1/3 moa accuracy.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't be disappointed in the 300gr SMKs just yet. 0.619 is 87% of 0.705, and you first batch is really just based on the paper/math exercising of taking a swag at where the safe operating limits, and not the accuracy node, of a given load will be.
How many groups did you fire of each charge, and what was the largest group and average group size for each bullet? 13% variance is probably well within a single standard deviation.

If you are going to run batches of five for the 285s, why not do the same for the 300s? with a larger data set you will be able to better understand if the 285s truly are the better performer at 215m.
I would at least want to give each load the benefit of one round of honing in on a node to give them a fair chance to perform.

At 200 meters the better BC of the 300gr would barely be noticeable, but even with a slightly looser group might perform better at LR with reduced wind deflection.
 
For you guys that do the ladder test at 200 yards plus what are you using for a scope? For my old eyes my 3x10 Swarovski and 3x10 vx3i are just not enough for me to see 1/8" as what Jerry (Mystic Precision) mentioned in one of his posts. I am only working with hunting rifles and am even considering buying 1 more scope just to use for load development and then replace it with my swaro or Leupold when done.
 
Last edited:
In this case I am running a 5.5-22 x 56mm Nightforce with NPR1 reticle. You can see most holes at that range with this scope but those few that you cannot you just drive up to the target etc.
 
Back
Top Bottom