Canadian made "black" rifle

Daver_II said:
It is if you want it cheap...
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Exactly.
"Good accuracy" for a semi auto target rifle in 5.56mm is 2-3 MOA with bulk commercial ammo in my opinion.
Hitting steel plates at 300 meters, shooting pop cans at 100 meters, close up paper punching for the weekend warrior types who are into that stuff.
If I want sub MOA I'm going to a big, heavy, unwieldy bolt gun. Not a semi auto small caliber black rifle. Why do people not get this?
We need to separate the requirements and expectations here or the rifle will always come out a) a confused mess b) not reliable c) same price as all the other crazy expensive NR black rifles and/or all 3.
It doesn't have to be built like a tank. You don't need to be able to drop it from a chopper and pick it up and keep firing. It doesn't have to pass the youtube "mud tests".
Just be cheap, reliable and practical enough to hold it in your hands and shoot the damn thing.
Semi auto
5.56mm
STANAG mags
Light
Simple
Cheap
Reliable.
2-3 MOA

Market success!
 
Travis Bickle said:
Exactly.
"Good accuracy" for a semi auto target rifle in 5.56mm is 2-3 MOA with bulk commercial ammo in my opinion.
Hitting steel plates at 300 meters, shooting pop cans at 100 meters, close up paper punching for the weekend warrior types who are into that stuff.
If I want sub MOA I'm going to a big, heavy, unwieldy bolt gun. Not a semi auto small caliber black rifle. Why do people not get this?
We need to separate the requirements and expectations here or the rifle will always come out a) a confused mess b) not reliable c) same price as all the other crazy expensive NR black rifles and/or all 3.
It doesn't have to be built like a tank. You don't need to be able to drop it from a chopper and pick it up and keep firing. It doesn't have to pass the youtube "mud tests".
Just be cheap, reliable and practical enough to hold it in your hands and shoot the damn thing.
Semi auto
5.56mm
STANAG mags
Light
Simple
Cheap
Reliable.
2-3 MOA

Market success!
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! :D
 
Travis Bickle said:
Exactly.
"Good accuracy" for a semi auto target rifle in 5.56mm is 2-3 MOA with bulk commercial ammo in my opinion.
Hitting steel plates at 300 meters, shooting pop cans at 100 meters, close up paper punching for the weekend warrior types who are into that stuff.
If I want sub MOA I'm going to a big, heavy, unwieldy bolt gun. Not a semi auto small caliber black rifle. Why do people not get this?
We need to separate the requirements and expectations here or the rifle will always come out a) a confused mess b) not reliable c) same price as all the other crazy expensive NR black rifles and/or all 3.
It doesn't have to be built like a tank. You don't need to be able to drop it from a chopper and pick it up and keep firing. It doesn't have to pass the youtube "mud tests".
Just be cheap, reliable and practical enough to hold it in your hands and shoot the damn thing.
Semi auto
5.56mm
STANAG mags
Light
Simple
Cheap
Reliable.
2-3 MOA

Market success!
Click to expand...

So a mini14 that takes STANAG mags
 
Travis Bickle said:
Exactly.
"Good accuracy" for a semi auto target rifle in 5.56mm is 2-3 MOA with bulk commercial ammo in my opinion.
Hitting steel plates at 300 meters, shooting pop cans at 100 meters, close up paper punching for the weekend warrior types who are into that stuff.
If I want sub MOA I'm going to a big, heavy, unwieldy bolt gun. Not a semi auto small caliber black rifle. Why do people not get this?
We need to separate the requirements and expectations here or the rifle will always come out a) a confused mess b) not reliable c) same price as all the other crazy expensive NR black rifles and/or all 3.
It doesn't have to be built like a tank. You don't need to be able to drop it from a chopper and pick it up and keep firing. It doesn't have to pass the youtube "mud tests".
Just be cheap, reliable and practical enough to hold it in your hands and shoot the damn thing.
Semi auto
5.56mm
STANAG mags
Light
Simple
Cheap
Reliable.
2-3 MOA

Market success!
Click to expand...

Add:
-Pistol grip
-NR
-Doesn't require 2+ years to issue an FRT
 
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lone-wolf said:
So a mini14 that takes STANAG mags
Click to expand...

No. Like an AR180b. Without any mod.

Why is it so complicated to wrap one's head around? Why try to make something so complicated? It exists. It is there. It can be roughly the same as a basic AR-15 but NR in Canada. Just think S&W M&P Sport2, but unrestricted, with a slightly higher price to account for lower volume (800-850$ instead of 700$).

Of course a lot of people won't hunt with them, but some will. A lot of people have NR PAL and shooting club memberships, and they can't get an AR. Some people in the country would just want to shoot an AR on their own land.

And another plus: make an AR that's not (legally) an AR15, for the price of an AR15 (ok, slightly more), and BAM, you've opened the gate. Like BCL just did with the 102.
 
Wolverine has a B&T magwell adapter for $120 for VZ858 to adapt to 10 Rd XCR x39 mags
Use with WR762 and you have Canadian Rifle .
 
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I'm sitting here watching Nutnfancy's review of the AR180, and more and more I'm thinking this would be an incredible starting point for an absolutely amazing Canadian original black rifle. The faults of this rifle lie not in its basic design, but rather the build quality - crappy stamped metal, weak folding stock mechanism, crappy trigger, etc. Using the AR180 as a starting point, but using 2017 production capabilities, a builder could produce something absolutely phenomenal.

I'm excited about this idea :)
 
Darkw said:
I'm eager to see what comes of this.
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Imagine, if you will, a Canadian produced AR180 with a simplified milled receiver, improved folding stock mechanism, perhaps designed so as to accept AR aftermarket options, AR pistol grip attachment point, integral pic rail atop the receiver, high quality barrel, designed to accept stanag pattern mags. Mmmmmm so ###y.
 
Longarm9 said:
I'm sitting here watching Nutnfancy's review of the AR180, and more and more I'm thinking this would be an incredible starting point for an absolutely amazing Canadian original black rifle. The faults of this rifle lie not in its basic design, but rather the build quality - crappy stamped metal, weak folding stock mechanism, crappy trigger, etc. Using the AR180 as a starting point, but using 2017 production capabilities, a builder could produce something absolutely phenomenal.

I'm excited about this idea :)
Click to expand...

The design is very very solid. The design is Eugene Stoners straight up.
The same genius that brought us the AR15.
The original AR18 was just a scaled down version of the AR16 which was a 7.62mm NATO chambered original of what would become the AR18. Miller took Eugene Stoners AR16 and scaled her down to 5.56mm to make the AR18. Which is the core of the AR180/180b
The approach was shaky on the 180b. They had the right idea. Making the AR18 compatible with AR15 components, mags, FCG etc They just went a little too cheap on assembly points/methods. Original retail for the rifle in the US back then was around $600 and it was competing in a market in a country where anyone can walk the hills with an AR15 on their back. They went too cheap IMO but they had zero choice. Price point was the only thing they could use to compete in a market flooded with AR15's.
The AR18 rifle core design is ingeniously simple, reliable and reasonably accurate.
It just never went through 50+ years of USDOD unlimited cash funding and development as the AR15 has done.

I still think a revised Canadian version of this rifle with solid affordable parts support would be a ground shaking success. It really is a no brainer.
Again I cannot believe it has taken this long and not a single firearm producer/company has taken this simple concept and made it ours.
People argue the merits of the AR180 compared to the AR15. No s**t the AR15 is a better rifle. We get it. I own one too. But this is Canada and the AR15 is a restricted range toy destined to punch paper until the end of time under the Red Maple leaf.
 
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I agree, my hesitation with the 180b is the build quality. My experience with them was meh..... but use it as a starting point and you got a winner. You dont need to reinvent the wheel just improve where it fell short.
 
AR180B clone in 7.62x39 with chrome lined barrel and metal lower (like the No-Dak aluminum ones) for me please. And tack weld a low profile piece of steel picatiny rail on top of the receiver instead of the crappy sheet metal thingy for a proprietary mount that the AR180B had on it.

These rifles are dead simple to manufacture compared to anything else and will sell well. It can be done for around $1000 in the right volume and would be a killer deer rifle also. Don't go .223 - 7.62x39 is more universally useful and will rope in the fudds who deer hunt to drive production volumes up where they need to be.

The most expensive part will be the stamping and folding dies & jigs for the upper, but there are definitely sheet metal fab outfits in Canada that can do it. The rest can be inexpensively cranked out on six-axis mills at any number of machine shops. Heck, I'd bet even BCL/NEA would collaborate on the mass production machining, provided you don't make it in .308 so it doesn't compete with the 102.

Don't mess with valmet or AK clones. The horse cops will only slam the door in your face after lots of money invested. Clone an already non-restricted rifle with expired patents for the win!!! (i.e. an improved AR180B).
 
I see the appeal of the 7.62x39 chambering, but I'd really prefer to be able to use stanag pattern mags, for pistol mag capabilities, which apparently have issues feeding x39. If it's going to be x39, I would say chrome barrel lining is more important to protect against surplus corrosive.
 
I wasn't too interested in the AR180 at first, really wanted to get my hands on a reasonably priced M10X..

But the more I read about it and imagine a few improvements, I think it could be a great easyish win!

STANAG mag compatible milled receiver, AR grip/trigger and ambi controls. Use a straight AK stock as a dirt cheap factory option, then people can upgrade to one of the many after-market folders available if they want.

Make classic style uppers in both .223 and x39, and then work on an IUR style upper that more closely resembles the M10X later.

If CanAm can pull that off at a reasonable price, it might be tough to stop buying them! lol
 
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