Giraud vs Dillon rt1500

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Salmoncan

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Good day fellow reloaders.

Winter is here(not full strike but getting there) and I think it's time for me to finally start reloading 223 now.
I bough a Dillon 650 xl with casefeeder this summer and so far I've been reloading only 9mm and been very happy with it.
I only have about 100ish rounds of 223 left and I think it's about time to start rolling my own.

I've done enough research and plan to set up two toolheads, one for case prep and one for the actual loading.
In term of trimmer, I'm leaning to the Dillon rt1500, as I can just keep cranking the handles without even touching a single case. I know the Dillon doesn't chamfer or debur, and was told to take a look at the Giraud.
As much as I like Giraud being able to trim, chamfer, and debur in one go, the price tag seems to be a little unfriendly.
My question is, for 223 and 308 (in the near future), does the Dillon rt1500 do a good job? Is it necessary to have the case mouth chamferred and deburred if you have no problem seating the bullet into it? (without copper shaving or something like that)
I know I'll get asked for the volume I'm reloading. I shoot about 1000-1300 rounds of 9mm and 223 combined per month. Not a whole lot, so if I divide my case trimming into a few batches, I think Giraud can handle it. But I'd rather not to, not only because it's $460 US before shipping and taxes but also I think there's a waitlist. And if I rt1500 does what I need, then that's what I'm going to get, for now.

Thank you all for chiming in and giving me your input.
 
Have you looked at Gracey trimmers? I am set up for both .223 and .308. Takes about 2 seconds per round, trims to length and chamfers inside and out.
 
maynard said:
Have you looked at Gracey trimmers? I am set up for both .223 and .308. Takes about 2 seconds per round, trims to length and chamfers inside and out.
Click to expand...

I have not but I've seen people pretty happy with it after upgrading the blade and something. Basically turning it to a more cost-effective version of Giraud. I'll do some google-fu.
 
Just got my RT1500 and SwageIT set up last weekend and started cranking out the brass, prepping for next summer.

My two concerns with the RT so far are the inner flange on the trim cut, and neck tension. It is a pretty clean cut, and guys say that with a stainless pin final tumble it is good enough. But I think I will quickly run each trimmed case over my inner chamfer reamer toolhead on my Frankford 4-station case prep center. Fortunately the inner chamfer step is the easiest and fastest of the four that the RT1500 and SwageIT is attempting to replace, so it is saving me some time.

I will say that it running the press set up like this is pretty physically demanding. It's sort of a 'do 100, come back tomorrow' kind of process. And being that you don't run the neck tension ball after using the RT die to resize (because trimmer is in the way), your neck tension is always going to be higher (smaller neck) and not well controlled. For this reason I think I am going to run each case through the deprime die again during loading process.

I think this will work. I'm hoping to have about 6k 223's ready for next May and use them up by next October.

My old process:
Clean (ultrasonic or stainless pin tumble)
650 with case feeder
spray the cases with lube in the case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die
then use Frankford 4 station prep center to cut out crimp, trim, inner chamfer, outer chamfer
clean
load on 650 with case feeder
stn 2 - 650 powder charge
stn 3 - Mr bullet bullet feeder
stn 4 - Dillon bullet seat die
stn 5 - Dillon taper crimp die

My new process:
Clean (ultrasonic or stainless pin tumble)
650 with case feeder
spray the cases with lube in the case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die - set about 0.005" high to leave a little more resize for the RT's die (it needs to do some resizing to hold the case from spinning)
stn 2 - SwageIT
stn 4 - RT1500
then use Frankford 4 station prep center to cut out inner chamfer
clean
load on 650 with case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die - set high enough to not resize at all - just using it for the neck tension ball
stn 2 - 650 powder charge
stn 3 - Mr bullet bullet feeder
stn 4 - Dillon bullet seat die
stn 5 - Dillon taper crimp die
 
I have both the Dillon RT1200 and the Giraud Tri-Way (powered by your own drill). While the Tri-Way isn't the same as the full size Giraud power trimmer, I believe it functions similar enough to the Giraud Power Trimmer to give a fair comparison.

I honestly can't imagine anything being faster than the Dillon RT1200 when set up. The Dillon full length sizes your brass prior to trimming, and I found the cuts to be extremely clean with and usually no shavings or burrs on the case mouth; I typically tumble my brass after trimming to get the lube off and found that any residual burrs or shavings come off in the tumble. Neck tension is usually too high on the Dillon sized brass, so I set up my first loading station with a carbide neck sizing die (will also help to pull off the odd burr hanging on).

The Giraud is nice that it deburrs and chamfers at the same time, but you still need to size your brass prior to trimming since it indexes on the shoulder. It also requires an extra quarter turn after the trim to ensure the chamfer is even. I think it takes about 4-5 seconds to process a piece of brass on my Giraud Tri-Way, while the Dillon is pretty much as fast as I can go.

Accuracy of trims is excellent on both with both typically being with +/- 0.001".
 
adamg said:
Just got my RT1500 and SwageIT set up last weekend and started cranking out the brass, prepping for next summer.

My two concerns with the RT so far are the inner flange on the trim cut, and neck tension. It is a pretty clean cut, and guys say that with a stainless pin final tumble it is good enough. But I think I will quickly run each trimmed case over my inner chamfer reamer toolhead on my Frankford 4-station case prep center. Fortunately the inner chamfer step is the easiest and fastest of the four that the RT1500 and SwageIT is attempting to replace, so it is saving me some time.

I will say that it running the press set up like this is pretty physically demanding. It's sort of a 'do 100, come back tomorrow' kind of process. And being that you don't run the neck tension ball after using the RT die to resize (because trimmer is in the way), your neck tension is always going to be higher (smaller neck) and not well controlled. For this reason I think I am going to run each case through the deprime die again during loading process.

I think this will work. I'm hoping to have about 6k 223's ready for next May and use them up by next October.

My old process:
Clean (ultrasonic or stainless pin tumble)
650 with case feeder
spray the cases with lube in the case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die
then use Frankford 4 station prep center to cut out crimp, trim, inner chamfer, outer chamfer
clean
load on 650 with case feeder
stn 2 - 650 powder charge
stn 3 - Mr bullet bullet feeder
stn 4 - Dillon bullet seat die
stn 5 - Dillon taper crimp die

My new process:
Clean (ultrasonic or stainless pin tumble)
650 with case feeder
spray the cases with lube in the case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die - set about 0.005" high to leave a little more resize for the RT's die (it needs to do some resizing to hold the case from spinning)
stn 2 - SwageIT
stn 4 - RT1500
then use Frankford 4 station prep center to cut out inner chamfer
clean
load on 650 with case feeder
stn 1 - Dillon full length size and deprime die - set high enough to not resize at all - just using it for the neck tension ball
stn 2 - 650 powder charge
stn 3 - Mr bullet bullet feeder
stn 4 - Dillon bullet seat die
stn 5 - Dillon taper crimp die
Click to expand...

Thank you for the input.

This is pretty much how I would set up my case prep head. Same I would throw the resize/decap die in station one to punch out the spent primer and do about 80% ish of the resizing leaving 20% to be finished by the trim/size die. Only thing different I would do is to put a Lyman M die or universal decap die with expand assembly somewhere behind the trimming station instead of pulling the FL resize/decap die out and put it on the "load" head to open up the neck tension a bit. However, if I'm going this route I would hate to handle the case one by one and chamfer them by hand. It just seems to defeat the purpose of going rt1500 in the first place.

I'm thinking about getting the swage-it as well. How do you like it so far?
 
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I've got both and my opinion is the Giraud is worth the investment. While the Dillon did the job to a level I thought was good I have not used it since I got the Giraud.

I can trim and anneal 500 cases in about 2 hours with the Giraud and a water cooled Annie. The brass is perfect. If you want the best, the choice is obvious but it will come at a cost.

The lack of noise alone is worth it to me... The Dillon sounds like a chain saw in heat.
 
How long did you wait until you got your Giraud? I've heard people on the waitlist for 16 weeks but I didn't call them to ask it so it might be better now.
 
It's too soon for me to give a verdict on the Swage It. I'll have to prime a few hundred cases it swaged before I know if it is doing a good enough job.

Agreed about the M Die after the RT die. I had read that on Enos and think I'll pick one up. Moving my resize die between heads and having to reset my headspace on it is not worth the $22US the M die costs.
 
I think it was about 6 weeks from order until I had it. I got heads for .223, .308, .300wm, and .338 LM. so I would not have to adjust the blades each time I changed calibers. They are the most decent and kind people you could ever deal with at Giraud. When you call, they answer the phone and talk to you about what you need. They will not charge your credit card until they ship. They also shipped by USPS so I would not have to deal with UPS and their crap... No import fees but I did have to pay 5% GST.
As for the swage I have had very good luck with that as well. I used it on 2000 PMC .223 brass and have used it on Privi .300wm brass and it works as it should. Set the depth properly and priming was consistent. Make sure you don't over do it or you will have lose pockets.
 
I had a RT1050 set up for processing .223 brass. I did a few hundred thousand on the 1050. I had a case feeder set up on the press. I found that the Dillon RT1500 did leave a bit of a burr on the inside & outside of the case. So I went to a local machine shop supplier & picked up a carbide cutter designed especially for non ferrous metal cutting. That made a huge difference. Virtually no burr at all.
The Dillon RT1500 die is a small base sizing die also, so it resizes all the different range brass I had back to SAMI specs. That made a difference as a lot of resizing dies don't resize that last bit at the base of a case if it was fired from a rifle with a loose chamber.
Then after the case was resized & trimmed I used a Lyman M die to open up the case mouth a bit to make placing a flat base bullet on the case easier. I had the M die taper the mouth just enough to have a flat base bullet sit in the case mouth a tiny bit, thus not falling over. The M die also eliminated any burr on the inside of the case mouth.
I also checked the brass every once in a while with a Lyman case gauge to make sure it was done properly. I never had one not pass the case gauge test.

I found that this system worked the fastest & was the most cost efficient way to process .223 brass without having to touch the brass by hand once I had loaded the case feeder.

Regards, Henry
 
With regards to the waiting time for giraud. I have ordered two power trimmers, one for myself and a second for a friend after he saw what it could do. Wait time was two weeks for mine and one for his. Great people to deal with and great product.
 
Henry Nierychlo said:
I had a RT1050 set up for processing .223 brass. I did a few hundred thousand on the 1050. I had a case feeder set up on the press. I found that the Dillon RT1500 did leave a bit of a burr on the inside & outside of the case. So I went to a local machine shop supplier & picked up a carbide cutter designed especially for non ferrous metal cutting. That made a huge difference. Virtually no burr at all.
The Dillon RT1500 die is a small base sizing die also, so it resizes all the different range brass I had back to SAMI specs. That made a difference as a lot of resizing dies don't resize that last bit at the base of a case if it was fired from a rifle with a loose chamber.
Then after the case was resized & trimmed I used a Lyman M die to open up the case mouth a bit to make placing a flat base bullet on the case easier. I had the M die taper the mouth just enough to have a flat base bullet sit in the case mouth a tiny bit, thus not falling over. The M die also eliminated any burr on the inside of the case mouth.
I also checked the brass every once in a while with a Lyman case gauge to make sure it was done properly. I never had one not pass the case gauge test.

I found that this system worked the fastest & was the most cost efficient way to process .223 brass without having to touch the brass by hand once I had loaded the case feeder.

Regards, Henry
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing Henry.
Dillon offers steel and carbide trim die for the rt1500. I'm wondering which one you got. I'd get the steel if it wasn't necessary because I have the Redding national match die set for 223 and the resizing die is carbide.
 
moash said:
I have both the Dillon RT1200 and the Giraud Tri-Way (powered by your own drill). While the Tri-Way isn't the same as the full size Giraud power trimmer, I believe it functions similar enough to the Giraud Power Trimmer to give a fair comparison.

I honestly can't imagine anything being faster than the Dillon RT1200 when set up. The Dillon full length sizes your brass prior to trimming, and I found the cuts to be extremely clean with and usually no shavings or burrs on the case mouth; I typically tumble my brass after trimming to get the lube off and found that any residual burrs or shavings come off in the tumble. Neck tension is usually too high on the Dillon sized brass, so I set up my first loading station with a carbide neck sizing die (will also help to pull off the odd burr hanging on).

The Giraud is nice that it deburrs and chamfers at the same time, but you still need to size your brass prior to trimming since it indexes on the shoulder. It also requires an extra quarter turn after the trim to ensure the chamfer is even. I think it takes about 4-5 seconds to process a piece of brass on my Giraud Tri-Way, while the Dillon is pretty much as fast as I can go.

Accuracy of trims is excellent on both with both typically being with +/- 0.001".
Click to expand...

Thanks moash. This is consistent to what I've been hearing. Performance-wise, do you notice any difference between the two trimmers? Lots people say with Giraud you will end up with more accurate ammo. To me, if chamferring isn't doing any good if it's not needed. But I'm too new to the reloading to be sure of anything.
 
Salmoncan said:
Thanks moash. This is consistent to what I've been hearing. Performance-wise, do you notice any difference between the two trimmers? Lots people say with Giraud you will end up with more accurate ammo. To me, if chamferring isn't doing any good if it's not needed. But I'm too new to the reloading to be sure of anything.
Click to expand...

I've been using the power trimmers for my bulk brass mostly to feed my ARs and make bulk varmint ammo. I honestly can't say I've noticed a huge difference in quality of ammo either. I feed my bulk ammo loads with bulk Hornady 55gr SP and FMJs loaded on a Dillon 550b and H335; out of my custom .223 bolt actions, they still group at around 1/2" at 100m, so I can't complain. I do, however, anneal all my processed brass and believe that has helped improve the consistency of my loads a fair bit. If I'm being picky for long range or precision ammo, I will still trim all my brass by hand on a Wilson trimmer; I like to have a bit more control over how much chamfer goes onto the neck and that just means doing it by hand (which I usually end up loathing).

If speed is what you're after, the Dillon is hard to beat. With either Giraud or Dillon, you'll need to size your brass; with the Dillon, your brass will be trimmed by the time you finish sizing while the Giraud you're just half way there. Dillon is much louder and should be run with a shop-vac to clear chips out of the die, so those added costs and considerations may be something else to factor in your decision as well.
 
moash said:
I've been using the power trimmers for my bulk brass mostly to feed my ARs and make bulk varmint ammo. I honestly can't say I've noticed a huge difference in quality of ammo either. I feed my bulk ammo loads with bulk Hornady 55gr SP and FMJs loaded on a Dillon 550b and H335; out of my custom .223 bolt actions, they still group at around 1/2" at 100m, so I can't complain. I do, however, anneal all my processed brass and believe that has helped improve the consistency of my loads a fair bit. If I'm being picky for long range or precision ammo, I will still trim all my brass by hand on a Wilson trimmer; I like to have a bit more control over how much chamfer goes onto the neck and that just means doing it by hand (which I usually end up loathing).

If speed is what you're after, the Dillon is hard to beat. With either Giraud or Dillon, you'll need to size your brass; with the Dillon, your brass will be trimmed by the time you finish sizing while the Giraud you're just half way there. Dillon is much louder and should be run with a shop-vac to clear chips out of the die, so those added costs and considerations may be something else to factor in your decision as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks again moash. I know I'll need a shop vac and I think that shop vac is going to be the major noise maker. I really don't know at this point, something tells me that I'm gonna end up with both in the end of the day...it's just which to get first now. I'll be loading to feed my AR as well, if the accuracy is acceptable in your book, it's acceptable in my book.
 
adamg said:
I should add that my procedure above also includes a central vac and ear muffs.
Click to expand...

Noted. Adamg, what trim die do you use? Carbide or steel? Is steel ok for average shooter/reloader? I know I would still have to lube the cases of anything bottleneck even if it's carbide and the carbide trim die's price is hard to swallow.
 
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