Why don't IPSC shooters like 3-gun?

Personally, I have never understood why any of these tactical/practical sports let people walk the course in advance to develop a stage plan at all. If the goal is to be demonstrating practical/defensive/offensive shooting skills, there should be a healthy element of the unknown. Showing everyone where all the targets are in advance, and letting people rehearse before their actual stage always seemed counter productive to me.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what these sports are about. Neither IPSC or 3gun are intended to be tactical, offensive or defensive. I'm with you about them not exactly being "practical". Relative to other shooting sports maybe...
 
Personally, I have never understood why any of these tactical/practical sports let people walk the course in advance to develop a stage plan at all. If the goal is to be demonstrating practical/defensive/offensive shooting skills, there should be a healthy element of the unknown. Showing everyone where all the targets are in advance, and letting people rehearse before their actual stage always seemed counter productive to me.

Never understood that as well.
 
3 gun is very slow compared to IPSC. Unloading and clearing several weapons on the stage takes time.

'Depends on where you're shooting...
Some matches have people clearing your guns after you've dumped them... You pretty much only have to clear the last gun you use. The other two will be waiting for you back at the safety table/area.
 
'Depends on where you're shooting...
Some matches have people clearing your guns after you've dumped them... You pretty much only have to clear the last gun you use. The other two will be waiting for you back at the safety table/area.

This really speeds things up. I prefer this way to keep things flowing along.
 
I don’t shoot 3 gun because of 3 reasons : time, money, local availability.
Shooting ipsc can get expensive on top of other hobbies (precision rifle), if i shoot 3 gun less time for my precision rifle and ipsc, if i have to travel it eats up even more time and money.
Let’s say my local club EOSC would run 3 gun, I’d get the basic gear and give it a try
 
Personally, I have never understood why any of these tactical/practical sports let people walk the course in advance to develop a stage plan at all. If the goal is to be demonstrating practical/defensive/offensive shooting skills, there should be a healthy element of the unknown. Showing everyone where all the targets are in advance, and letting people rehearse before their actual stage always seemed counter productive to me.



Well... Once in a while you will encounter a "blind" stage...
That said, none of this stuff is "tactical"... It's all a game. If you want to be "real world tactical" you'll have to go join the ETF or JTF2.
Unfortunately you'll also have to be able to do more than 4 push ups and get your gun to fire more than two shots without some sort of stoppage.
Heard one comment at this years BRM3G regarding the self described "tactical" shooter.... "Tactical just means "slow as f*** and can't hit s***
 
To answer why this 3 gunner doesn't shoot IPSC. To be honest, only shooting pistol seems boring after shooting 3 gun. YMMV

However, all shooting sports are good!
 
well just like you don't understand how people can get DQ'd inspite of taking a BB course, it's plainly obvious you don't understand the sport and what's required to participate in it. The games have developed down those paths as more people prefer to shoot stages that way than the hidden way. And given the technology changes we've seen in surveillance gear, it's getting to be the same for actual tactical scenarios too. The more info the better.

Personally, I have never understood why any of these tactical/practical sports let people walk the course in advance to develop a stage plan at all. If the goal is to be demonstrating practical/defensive/offensive shooting skills, there should be a healthy element of the unknown. Showing everyone where all the targets are in advance, and letting people rehearse before their actual stage always seemed counter productive to me.
 
Personally, I have never understood why any of these tactical/practical sports let people walk the course in advance to develop a stage plan at all. If the goal is to be demonstrating practical/defensive/offensive shooting skills, there should be a healthy element of the unknown. Showing everyone where all the targets are in advance, and letting people rehearse before their actual stage always seemed counter productive to me.

You seem to be confused about IPSC and these other sports. They are Sports; Games - and the first goal of a sport is to ensure fairness. After the first person goes through the course of fire, everyone else has an opportunity to get an advantage because people can't keep their yaps shut. At the very least the second guy just needs to listen to the gun shots to determine where and how much shooting is required and gets an advantage over the first shooter.

Then there's the issue of a re-shoot. If something goes wrong during a shooter's run (popper is overweight, mover doesn't move, etc.) then that person will have a major advantage on the run when they do it over. We can't disqualify the competitor - it wasn't their fault that things went wrong.

Seriously, If you've got someone telling you that gun games are "tactical" or "training for the real world" you need to move away from them - slowly - carefully - not making any sudden moves - maybe even offer them a 5.11 molle accessory to go with their spiffy outfit as a distraction
 
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well just like you don't understand how people can get DQ'd inspite of taking a BB course, it's plainly obvious you don't understand the sport and what's required to participate in it. The games have developed down those paths as more people prefer to shoot stages that way than the hidden way. And given the technology changes we've seen in surveillance gear, it's getting to be the same for actual tactical scenarios too. The more info the better.

Perhaps something was not conveyed properly, but I quite easily understand who people with a BB can get DQ'd. Its called being human, something many people with BBs don't like to admit when they talk down to other people who haven't done the course, for whatever reason.

PLainly obvious that I don't understand the sport and whats required to participate in it? I can read, so understand whats required isn't that hard. Am I a 10 year IPSC competitor who likes to romanticize what DVC is all about, no, but I don't think thats whats required in order to understand the sport. Its a sport. I get sports. The skills are different. Just because I have some questions, doesn't mean I don't get it or know what it takes to compete.

I find it interesting that you want to comment on the sporting nature of the sport, but can't resist making a passing reference to actual tactical scenarios, and how use of modern surveillance equipment is comparable to a stage walk through. Most sports ban modern equipment that gives unfair advantages, or any technology that causes a shift away from athletic ability being the deciding factor.

You seem to be confused about IPSC and these other sports. They are Sports; Games - and the first goal of a sport is to ensure fairness. After the first person goes through the course of fire, everyone else has an opportunity to get an advantage because people can't keep their yaps shut. At the very least the second guy just needs to listen to the gun shots to determine where and how much shooting is required and gets an advantage over the first shooter.

Then there's the issue of a re-shoot. If something goes wrong during a shooter's run (popper is overweight, mover doesn't move, etc.) then that person will have a major advantage on the run when they do it over. We can't disqualify the competitor - it wasn't their fault that things went wrong.

Seriously, If you've got someone telling you that gun games are "tactical" or "training for the real world" you need to move away from them - slowly - carefully - not making any sudden moves - maybe even offer them a 5.11 molle accessory to go with their spiffy outfit as a distraction

I perfectly understand the fairness aspects, and the safety aspects, of stage walk throughs. The vast majority of sports, now that I think about it I can't name an exception, where competitors go into a field of play without ever having seen and practiced on that field.

The only people consistently telling me that the gun games like IPSC, IDPA, 3 Gun USPSA, etc are tactical, and more specifically "training for the real world", are about half the competitors from those sports that I meet, or post on the forums. Many of them are the same CCW enthusiasts who sincerely tell you that their sport is sufficient to prepare them for real world gun fights, which I hope you will agree, is adorable. With respect, I will not distance myself from such people, because by and large they tend to be good people, with a slightly inflated opinion of a great sport that they are very passionate about.

As both you and Slavex have indicated, the sport grows and evolves to cater to new shooters just as much as the existing ones, and given how often I hear competitors in these sports routinely suggest that these practical sports are a great stand in for combat training, I am surprised that more of them aren't insisting on blind stages. Sure, people might not be able to keep their yap shut, but as a competition, I don't think its too hard for people to realize that they are only helping the competition win by blabbing.

I did a charity shoot a while back, which was a mixed bag of PPC, IPSC and IPDA like stages, but being a charity event no one took it too seriously as a competition, and just wanted to have fun. All of the stages were blind. Everyone had a blast, and the one team of IPSC die hards seemed to actually prefer the format.

Please don't mistake my curiosity for ignorance.
 
Perhaps something was not conveyed properly, but I quite easily understand who people with a BB can get DQ'd. Its called being human, something many people with BBs don't like to admit when they talk down to other people who haven't done the course, for whatever reason.

PLainly obvious that I don't understand the sport and whats required to participate in it? I can read, so understand whats required isn't that hard. Am I a 10 year IPSC competitor who likes to romanticize what DVC is all about, no, but I don't think thats whats required in order to understand the sport. Its a sport. I get sports. The skills are different. Just because I have some questions, doesn't mean I don't get it or know what it takes to compete.

I find it interesting that you want to comment on the sporting nature of the sport, but can't resist making a passing reference to actual tactical scenarios, and how use of modern surveillance equipment is comparable to a stage walk through. Most sports ban modern equipment that gives unfair advantages, or any technology that causes a shift away from athletic ability being the deciding factor.



I perfectly understand the fairness aspects, and the safety aspects, of stage walk throughs. The vast majority of sports, now that I think about it I can't name an exception, where competitors go into a field of play without ever having seen and practiced on that field.

The only people consistently telling me that the gun games like IPSC, IDPA, 3 Gun USPSA, etc are tactical, and more specifically "training for the real world", are about half the competitors from those sports that I meet, or post on the forums. Many of them are the same CCW enthusiasts who sincerely tell you that their sport is sufficient to prepare them for real world gun fights, which I hope you will agree, is adorable. With respect, I will not distance myself from such people, because by and large they tend to be good people, with a slightly inflated opinion of a great sport that they are very passionate about.

As both you and Slavex have indicated, the sport grows and evolves to cater to new shooters just as much as the existing ones, and given how often I hear competitors in these sports routinely suggest that these practical sports are a great stand in for combat training, I am surprised that more of them aren't insisting on blind stages. Sure, people might not be able to keep their yap shut, but as a competition, I don't think its too hard for people to realize that they are only helping the competition win by blabbing.

I did a charity shoot a while back, which was a mixed bag of PPC, IPSC and IPDA like stages, but being a charity event no one took it too seriously as a competition, and just wanted to have fun. All of the stages were blind. Everyone had a blast, and the one team of IPSC die hards seemed to actually prefer the format.

Please don't mistake my curiosity for ignorance.

In addition to the valid points brought up by Slavex and Freedom Ventures, there's also the more practical side. There's people involved in designing and building the stages, and there are work squads that RO and reset the stages in between shooters. In small club shoots, the same squad self-RO's and resets the stage. In larger sanctioned qualifiers, you alternate working and shooting for one morning or afternoon. Having all the stages "blind" for all the competitors is impossible unless we hire people to build and run the stages.

For fun shoots, it doesn't really matter. For Level 2 qualifiers where score is used to rank people in classes and award prizes per div/class we need as level a playing field as possible (ie each shoot squad gets a stage briefing & walk through and 5 minutes to make their stage plans).
 
You seem to be confused about IPSC and these other sports. They are Sports; Games - and the first goal of a sport is to ensure fairness. After the first person goes through the course of fire, everyone else has an opportunity to get an advantage because people can't keep their yaps shut. At the very least the second guy just needs to listen to the gun shots to determine where and how much shooting is required and gets an advantage over the first shooter.

Then there's the issue of a re-shoot. If something goes wrong during a shooter's run (popper is overweight, mover doesn't move, etc.) then that person will have a major advantage on the run when they do it over. We can't disqualify the competitor - it wasn't their fault that things went wrong.

Seriously, If you've got someone telling you that gun games are "tactical" or "training for the real world" you need to move away from them - slowly - carefully - not making any sudden moves - maybe even offer them a 5.11 molle accessory to go with their spiffy outfit as a distraction

Well said
 
Perhaps something was not conveyed properly, but I quite easily understand who people with a BB can get DQ'd. Its called being human, something many people with BBs don't like to admit when they talk down to other people who haven't done the course, for whatever reason.

PLainly obvious that I don't understand the sport and whats required to participate in it? I can read, so understand whats required isn't that hard. Am I a 10 year IPSC competitor who likes to romanticize what DVC is all about, no, but I don't think thats whats required in order to understand the sport. Its a sport. I get sports. The skills are different. Just because I have some questions, doesn't mean I don't get it or know what it takes to compete.

I find it interesting that you want to comment on the sporting nature of the sport, but can't resist making a passing reference to actual tactical scenarios, and how use of modern surveillance equipment is comparable to a stage walk through. Most sports ban modern equipment that gives unfair advantages, or any technology that causes a shift away from athletic ability being the deciding factor.



I perfectly understand the fairness aspects, and the safety aspects, of stage walk throughs. The vast majority of sports, now that I think about it I can't name an exception, where competitors go into a field of play without ever having seen and practiced on that field.

The only people consistently telling me that the gun games like IPSC, IDPA, 3 Gun USPSA, etc are tactical, and more specifically "training for the real world", are about half the competitors from those sports that I meet, or post on the forums. Many of them are the same CCW enthusiasts who sincerely tell you that their sport is sufficient to prepare them for real world gun fights, which I hope you will agree, is adorable. With respect, I will not distance myself from such people, because by and large they tend to be good people, with a slightly inflated opinion of a great sport that they are very passionate about.

As both you and Slavex have indicated, the sport grows and evolves to cater to new shooters just as much as the existing ones, and given how often I hear competitors in these sports routinely suggest that these practical sports are a great stand in for combat training, I am surprised that more of them aren't insisting on blind stages. Sure, people might not be able to keep their yap shut, but as a competition, I don't think its too hard for people to realize that they are only helping the competition win by blabbing.

I did a charity shoot a while back, which was a mixed bag of PPC, IPSC and IPDA like stages, but being a charity event no one took it too seriously as a competition, and just wanted to have fun. All of the stages were blind. Everyone had a blast, and the one team of IPSC die hards seemed to actually prefer the format.

Please don't mistake my curiosity for ignorance.

Well considering as a sport shooter, you would have more than likely have more pistol skills than the general gangster/career criminal. Its been proven that shooting under stress IE competition, helps in real life scenario's (hard to beat muscle memory). I would rather be a sport shooter and CCW'r than just one or the other. Being proficient with firearms just makes being a ccw'er that much easier, same with sport shooter.
 
You seem to be confused about IPSC and these other sports. They are Sports; Games - and the first goal of a sport is to ensure fairness. After the first person goes through the course of fire, everyone else has an opportunity to get an advantage because people can't keep their yaps shut. At the very least the second guy just needs to listen to the gun shots to determine where and how much shooting is required and gets an advantage over the first shooter.

Then there's the issue of a re-shoot. If something goes wrong during a shooter's run (popper is overweight, mover doesn't move, etc.) then that person will have a major advantage on the run when they do it over. We can't disqualify the competitor - it wasn't their fault that things went wrong.

Seriously, If you've got someone telling you that gun games are "tactical" or "training for the real world" you need to move away from them - slowly - carefully - not making any sudden moves - maybe even offer them a 5.11 molle accessory to go with their spiffy outfit as a distraction

Not so much with IPSC and 3guns, but CQB matches are a great gear tester. Its also good skill maintainer: emergency/speed reloads, transitions and what not.

Is it enough by itself ? Nope. But someone who works with weapons and dont get enough range time/bullet allotment at work can get something out of the CQB matches.

But yeah, nothing tactical about IPSC or 3guns... Spandex polos arent tactical :p
 
Not so much with IPSC and 3guns, but CQB matches are a great gear tester. Its also good skill maintainer: emergency/speed reloads, transitions and what not.

But yeah, nothing tactical about IPSC or 3guns

I won’t speak to ipsc because I don’t shoot it but 3gun matches are great gear testers, develop reload skills, etc. Saying CQB matches are somehow “tactical” while there is nothing tactical about ipsc or 3gun makes me think you have a limited understanding of 3gun.

They are all games. They all have, as a side benefit, the ability to make anyone more proficient with the use of their firearms. They are not combat training.
 
In addition to the valid points brought up by Slavex and Freedom Ventures, there's also the more practical side. There's people involved in designing and building the stages, and there are work squads that RO and reset the stages in between shooters. In small club shoots, the same squad self-RO's and resets the stage. In larger sanctioned qualifiers, you alternate working and shooting for one morning or afternoon. Having all the stages "blind" for all the competitors is impossible unless we hire people to build and run the stages.


For fun shoots, it doesn't really matter. For Level 2 qualifiers where score is used to rank people in classes and award prizes per div/class we need as level a playing field as possible (ie each shoot squad gets a stage briefing & walk through and 5 minutes to make their stage plans).


Well said VanMan.

IPSC / 3 Gun / IDPA are games. And a big part of the ‘game’ is quickly devising a good stage plan ...and then trying to stick to it.
 
I won’t speak to ipsc because I don’t shoot it but 3gun matches are great gear testers, develop reload skills, etc. Saying CQB matches are somehow “tactical” while there is nothing tactical about ipsc or 3gun makes me think you have a limited understanding of 3gun.

They are all games. They all have, as a side benefit, the ability to make anyone more proficient with the use of their firearms. They are not combat training.

My last sentence about spandex was more of a joke and should not be taken seriously.

Joking aside, all shooting sports are excellent at making people proefficient with firearms and at the end of the day, its all about having fun.
 
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