Headspace Issue With Ross Rifle

[Mumbles Marble Mouth]

I just got a Ross Rifle I traded a .22 Marlin for. Problem is, after test firing it today to see how well it functions, it looks like it has a headspace issue. Can anyone tell me if this is a normal characteristic of these rifles or is this a serious problem. Sadly I got the rifle because I want to do some light target loads for it and convert it back to its original military condition even though it was a terrible military rifle. Its odd that the headspace would be out of wack because the condition of the rifle is pretty good. The stock says 1917 on it so it would be a Ross Rifle that was made when they took it out of service. Picture of rifle will be included but the picture doesn't show in detail the condition of the gun. Bluing is very good and bore is even better.

The Rifle

 

[tiriaq]

Those cases do not appear to show a headspace issue. You can see the expansion ring, where the thicker head thins down in the transition to the case walls.
You could section a case head, or use a little probe to feel for the internal ring indicating incipient case separation. If there is incipient separation, the rifle might have a headspace issue.
The expansion ring is more pronounced when the diameter of the case heads in on the small side.

 

[Mumbles Marble Mouth]

Thank you very much. I will cut one of the cases and see what it looks like. I have 950 Canadian Rangers .303 cases so I'm not worried about cutting one. The gun is a pleasure to shoot. I forgot to bring hearing protection with me to the woods. Went out just to test fire it. But because the barrel is so long, it doesn't bother me to shoot it without hearing protection.

 

[tiriaq]

Inspect your surplus brass very carefully. A lot of Lee Enfields have generous headspace. Not dangerous, but loose enough that cases might be unsuitable for reloading because of incipient separations. I have experienced a cull rate approaching 20%.

 

[bearhunter]

As tiriaq says, those fired cases look normal to me.

One thing many people don't understand is WHY those chambers are so large.

There are a lot of good reasons for it.

One that many don't comprehend is the make up of the powders the cases were originally meant to use. The 303 British was originally a blackpowder cartridge. Then it was loaded with Cordite and onto extruded single base powders etc. The powders were very fast by today's standards for the task at hand. This required a long, tapered body, shoulder and long neck to hold the bullet straight while it entered the leade and to keep pressures in check.

A lot of study by different physicists in different nations did the calculations to come up with those designs. Other tapered cases have similar issues from different nations, such as the US, Russia and France.

The next reason is that cartridge cases, not being protected by a magazine, get all sorts of damage done to them before they're chambered. Not only that mud and ice were a real factor. All of this had been learned the hard way from real life lessons with earlier cartridges meant for breech loaders.

This is a military rifle with military demands and constraints. It's main purpose in life is to go BANG, first time every time. So it's design incorporates features that wouldn't or shouldn't normally occur in commercial firearms. Funny thing, a lot of earlier sporting rifles have generous chambers as well. The reasons being similar.

When I first started shooting close to sixty years ago Ross rifles were famous for two things. Extreme accuracy and being undependable when needed.

Extremely good accuracy back in the day was measured in inches, not tenths of inches other than with very expensive, specialized rifles. No, I'm not talking about sniper rifles. The one's we see in the movies weren't nearly as accurate as they would have you believe. Things are much different today.

 

[M1-Garand]

I just got a Ross Rifle I traded a .22 Marlin for. Problem is, after test firing it today to see how well it functions, it looks like it has a headspace issue. Can anyone tell me if this is a normal characteristic of these rifles or is this a serious problem. Sadly I got the rifle because I want to do some light target loads for it and convert it back to its original military condition even though it was a terrible military rifle. Its odd that the headspace would be out of wack because the condition of the rifle is pretty good. The stock says 1917 on it so it would be a Ross Rifle that was made when they took it out of service. Picture of rifle will be included but the picture doesn't show in detail the condition of the gun. Bluing is very good and bore is even better.

A lot of them had their chambers enlarged since they were having issues with the poor British ammo and the muddy conditions in the trenches ,look for marking on top of receiver-LC.
In my Ross I only use neck sized reloads and keep them separate from my other .303 Enfields

_

 

[bearhunter]

I just got a Ross Rifle I traded a .22 Marlin for. Problem is, after test firing it today to see how well it functions, it looks like it has a headspace issue. Can anyone tell me if this is a normal characteristic of these rifles or is this a serious problem. Sadly I got the rifle because I want to do some light target loads for it and convert it back to its original military condition even though it was a terrible military rifle. Its odd that the headspace would be out of wack because the condition of the rifle is pretty good. The stock says 1917 on it so it would be a Ross Rifle that was made when they took it out of service. Picture of rifle will be included but the picture doesn't show in detail the condition of the gun. Bluing is very good and bore is even better.

A lot of them had their chambers enlarged since they were having issues with the poor British ammo and the muddy conditions in the trenches ,look for marking on top of receiver-LC.
In my Ross I only use neck sized reloads and keep them separate from my other .303 Enfields

_

Very good advice. I've owned and shot several Ross rifles. I like the 1905 with the solid locking lugs. I have had issues with every 1910 with the cannon style lugs.

M1-Garand, one thing I found with the model 1910 was that the shoulders of the cases had to be bumped back at least .005 in or the cartridges wouldn't chamber. It seems the cannon style lugs allow some stretch to occur after ignition.

 

[Mumbles Marble Mouth]

Got another problem with the gun. Anyone know where I can find a rear receiver screw? The rear action screw shattered when it was fired. Didn't notice it until I went to take the magazine out of the stock.

 

[M1-Garand]

Very good advice. I've owned and shot several Ross rifles. I like the 1905 with the solid locking lugs. I have had issues with every 1910 with the cannon style lugs.

M1-Garand, one thing I found with the model 1910 was that the shoulders of the cases had to be bumped back at least .005 in or the cartridges wouldn't chamber. It seems the cannon style lugs allow some stretch to occur after ignition.

Never run into that problem,I iused to full length resize but had too many case separations with my .303 s. After that I adopted the method with the little o-ring like mentioned by some of our
very experienced members on this forum,had no more problems since.
My model 1910 has an enlarged chamber,marked LC on top of the receiver and the neck sized ammo for this Ross is quite a bit larger(by about 0.10 mm) than the neck sized
ammo for my Nr 1 mk3* or my Nr4 rifles so you cannot even come close to closing the bolt if you tried to chamber these.

 

[Brno8x57]

A lot of them had their chambers enlarged since they were having issues with the poor British ammo and the muddy conditions in the trenches ,look for marking on top of receiver-LC.
In my Ross I only use neck sized reloads and keep them separate from my other .303 Enfields

_

If memory serves me correctly, early efforts to enlarge the chambers on Ross MkIII rifles were indeed stamped LC (for Large Chamber).
Later ones were stamped E (for enlarged).
I have 3 MkIII rifles. All are stamped E.
I agree with other folks who have replied to this thread. Your brass is not exhibiting any signs of headspace issues or insipient case head separation.

There are other threads here on CGN about case head separation, causes and headspace issues with respect to the 303 British cartridge and Lee Enfield rifles. I suggest you try the search function and read some of the illustrated posts by bigedp51. Some great info there.
Two best things you can do are 1- keep brass fired in your Ross specific to that rifle, and 2. Neck size only.
Good luck and welcome to the Ross addiction.

 

[bearhunter]

Never run into that problem,I iused to full length resize but had too many case separations with my .303 s. After that I adopted the method with the little o-ring like mentioned by some of our
very experienced members on this forum,had no more problems since.
My model 1910 has an enlarged chamber,marked LC on top of the receiver and the neck sized ammo for this Ross is quite a bit larger(by about 0.10 mm) than the neck sized
ammo for my Nr 1 mk3* or my Nr4 rifles so you cannot even come close to closing the bolt if you tried to chamber these.

Thanx for the reply. My question now it do you use the "O ring" every time you shoot your 1910s??? The enlarged chambers were done to alleviate the "Frozen Bolt" issues and from what I gather it worked well.

Still, I also had issues with the 280 Ross I had. Beautiful rifle and amazingly accurate but after three rounds the bolt was very difficult to open. Let it cool for 15 minutes and it was fine. This was with factory ammo.

My later handloads weren't as hot but after 5 rounds I had similar issues. I could extend the shooting sessions by full length resizing and pushing back the shoulders.

 

[tokguy]

Thanx for the reply. My question now it do you use the "O ring" every time you shoot your 1910s??? The enlarged chambers were done to alleviate the "Frozen Bolt" issues and from what I gather it worked well.

Still, I also had issues with the 280 Ross I had. Beautiful rifle and amazingly accurate but after three rounds the bolt was very difficult to open. Let it cool for 15 minutes and it was fine. This was with factory ammo.

My later handloads weren't as hot but after 5 rounds I had similar issues. I could extend the shooting sessions by full length resizing and pushing back the shoulders.

Question fellow CGN'r Bearhunter.
No disrespect intended, I enjoy your posts.
But I was under the impression that the 'O' ring trick was to combat the stretch that the Rear lugged LE were prone to.
I would have surmised that a Ross MK3 with it's 6 interrupted front lugs wouldn't benefit from the 'O' ring trick... but I could very well be mistaken.
Am I mistaken?

 

[M1-Garand]

Thanx for the reply. My question now it do you use the "O ring" every time you shoot your 1910s??? The enlarged chambers were done to alleviate the "Frozen Bolt" issues and from what I gather it worked well.

Still, I also had issues with the 280 Ross I had. Beautiful rifle and amazingly accurate but after three rounds the bolt was very difficult to open. Let it cool for 15 minutes and it was fine. This was with factory ammo.

My later handloads weren't as hot but after 5 rounds I had similar issues. I could extend the shooting sessions by full length resizing and pushing back the shoulders.

The reason to use the O-ring on rimmed cases is to hold the case head against the bolt face, this way the case will be fire formed and expands forward and from now on is head spaced
on the shoulder, not on the rim anymore.
So,you only have to use the O-ring once and just neck size thereafter, I use the Lee collet die for that.

 

[bearhunter]

No disrespect taken. I wish I had encyclopedic knowledge as some on this site do butttttt.

I am under the same impression that most others are that the O ring only needs to be used the first time and all should be well thereafter. It didn't work with my cannon(interrupted) thread Ross rifles. I do know the rifles I had were blessed with original chambers.

Ross rifles have never really been my thing. Mostly because of the problems associated with the early rifle I had. They were definitely extremely well built and beautiful as well. I always did and still do love the looks of them. Up until the Victoria Gun Show I quickly sold off every Ross I had in my hands as soon as possible. Didn't even bother to shoot them. To many other excellent 303s that I can play with, without the headache.

I was hoping to confirm that using the O ring was taking up enough of the stretch/expansion issues to alleviate the "Frozen Bolt" symptom.

Against my better judgement I picked up a very nice 1905 Ross at the last Victoria show. It's a sporter that looks to have been modified as such. It has a Winchester style rear sight mounted in a dovetail in the barrel. The elevation adjustment plate is marked off in 100 yard intervals. The stock is garbage and I will have to look for a decent one. Maybe Clint Tauber still has one or two left??? The best thing about it is that it has an excellent bore.

Because of this thread, I pulled it out of the safe and looked at the left side of the chamber area of the barrel. The only marks there are what appear to be proof marks.

I think I will play with this old girl for a while. Maybe take a bear with it next spring.

Because it's a 1905 there shouldn't be any extraction issues. We shall see.

To bad the stock is beaten up so badly. It's full of fiddleback.

A crown over crossed flags with a D and a C on each side and a 2 with a small flag on the bottom. There is also a crown with an I over a Q. Nothing else.

Thanx for the clarification.

I've been told in the past that if the O ring was used every time the cartridge was fired it would completely eliminate the Frozen Bolt issue. I was wondering if others had found this to be true as well.

 

[tiriaq]

A 1905 with nice wood and a Winchester sight sounds like a factory sporter. Is there a tiny serial number stamped along the left side of the barrel breach? Forend screw into a barrel band?
I've never heard of the interrupted thread lugs in Mk.III/1910 rifles contributing to setback and case stretching. The enlarged chambers, "E", "LC", certainly result in interesting fireforming. The O-ring trick holds the casehead back against the boltface for the first shot in a rifle with excess headspace, keeping in mind tat a .303 is intended to headspace on the rim. If headspace is within reasonable limits, there is no point in doing it. Once a case is successfully fireformed, treat it as if rimless. Excessive sizing after every shot could contribute to incipient separations.

 

[Oldguncrank]

B/H
Take off the butt plate and all will be revealed.
I have a couple of 05 Rs with no serial # on the barrel but mating numbers on the bolt rail (tiny), barrel (underneath), stock (under tang) and the tell tale serial # under (and on) the butt plate.
If it has nice fiddleback and is indeed a factory sporter, hold your nose and do a resto on the stock.
I am in the process of doing exactly that (advisedly) to my latest 05 R and the grain has come up amazingly.
BTW the 05 Rs and Es are the handiest, lightest and quickest woods rifle you will ever own.
Comes up like a custom, and with your excellent bore should be deadly.
All good wishes
OGC

 

[Oldguncrank]

B/H
Take off the butt plate and all will be revealed.
I have a couple of 05 Rs with no serial # on the barrel but mating numbers on the bolt rail (tiny), barrel (underneath), stock (under tang) and the tell tale serial # under (and on) the butt plate.
If it has nice fiddleback and is indeed a factory sporter, hold your nose and do a resto on the stock.
I am in the process of doing exactly that (advisedly) to my latest 05 R and the grain has come up amazingly.
BTW the 05 Rs and Es are the handiest, lightest and quickest woods rifle you will ever own.
Comes up like a custom, and with your excellent bore should be deadly, even with the "pencil barrel".
All good wishes
OGC

 

[bearhunter]

There are no numbers on or under the butt plate. I did find a number under the root of the bolt handle. Poorly stamped it's either 346 or 846. Only half of the first number is on the edge of the handle.

I am pretty much convinced I have a 1905 MkII military rifle that has been sportered.

The rear sight has KING with at patent number. It's different from the Winchester sight in that it does't have a stepped wedge inserted into the center slot. This sight has a channel for the buckhorn style rear sight to be carried in and has steps on both sides. Actually a much better sight than the Winchester in many ways. The front sight base was retained but was dovetailed to accept a beaded blade of proper height.

Another feature this rifle has that I haven't seen on a couple of other factory built sporters is the cartridge release lever at the front of the trigger guard. It also has the follower lever still in place and functional, which I believe is a nice feature.

I am not unpleased with this rifle. After close inspection it's quite obviously been sanded and relieved around the grip to slenderize its profile. All very well done.

I took it to the back forty to fire off ten quick rounds to check function and accuracy. It was excellent all around, given I was using surplus South African ammo from the late sixties. If push comes to shove I will remove the tung oil/varnish finish, recut the checkering, fill in the cracks, appropriately bed the old girl and see if brer bear will wander into its sight picture in the spring.

 

[Brno8x57]

B/H

BTW the 05 Rs and Es are the handiest, lightest and quickest woods rifle you will ever own.
Comes up like a custom, and with your excellent bore should be deadly.
All good wishes
OGC

I could not agree more. They are a true joy to carry in the field and have a butter slick action.

 

[Winchester-1897]

I just got a Ross Rifle I traded a .22 Marlin for. Problem is, after test firing it today to see how well it functions, it looks like it has a headspace issue. Can anyone tell me if this is a normal characteristic of these rifles or is this a serious problem. Sadly I got the rifle because I want to do some light target loads for it and convert it back to its original military condition even though it was a terrible military rifle. Its odd that the headspace would be out of wack because the condition of the rifle is pretty good. The stock says 1917 on it so it would be a Ross Rifle that was made when they took it out of service. Picture of rifle will be included but the picture doesn't show in detail the condition of the gun. Bluing is very good and bore is even better.

A lot of them had their chambers enlarged since they were having issues with the poor British ammo and the muddy conditions in the trenches ,look for marking on top of receiver-LC.
In my Ross I only use neck sized reloads and keep them separate from my other .303 Enfields

_

what he says^^^^^^^^^^^^^