Can Am 90 Grain Zinc 9mm bullets

Craig0ry

Craig0ry

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Anyone else buy some? I ended up buying 6k, 3k at first and after some initial testing another 3k.
Initially they ran awesome and I had great accuracy with them for the first 100-200 rounds loaded with 4gr of VVN310

Info on the bullets: They are 90 grain pure zinc but the same size as a 124 grain bullet. They look very well made.

Made some last night using 3.8gr of titegroup.

Problem with both loads has been the same, Initial accuracy is good and after 100 rounds it goes out the window, Looks like fouling in the barrel.

My questions are: Isnt Zinc the same hardness as copper? should they be fouling with these lighter loads?

Have you bought any and found a successful recipe?

Suggestions to prevent fouling? Should I try and slow these bullets down even more?

I dont have a chronograph hand so I can only go by what the book says.
4gr of VVN310 = 1262fps
4.7gr of titegroup = 1239fps but I was only running 3.8 so I don't really have a clue!?!

photo attached is just some of the residue I was able to scrape from the barrel today with some wood dowel. I only shot 100 rounds and the barrel doesn't look good at all

Left to right, 115gr, 90gr, 124gr, 147gr.


Some barrel scrapings
 
Just wondering why you use them? Are they a lot cheaper?
(Assuming you are not a tree hugger and want to save the world by not using lead)
 
That's actually zinc oxyde and zinc carbonate fouling I think. Pure zinc isn't blue like that, it's more silvery. That thin layer is totally normal and protects the zinc from further oxidization, but it's not as strong mechanically as the zinc itself.

Zinc also becomes very brittle when heated, a lot more than copper does. At room temperature, copper is slightly harder than zinc, but when you shoot a bullet, it rubs and deforms inside the barrel of your gun and becomes way too hot to stay strong. So they start breaking down, and you get the fouling you see.

I'm not sure who thought it would be good idea to make pure Zn bullets (casters in the 80s did it because it melts easily, only slightly higher than lead, but it never caught on), but I believe canam bought a batch to test them and decided against using them in their own reloads for the exact reason you see. No one sane wants to clean a barrel every 100 or so rounds, that just takes away the fun of shooting. I was gonna get myself a batch too until I saw they were zinc.

To be sure, it would be possible to make great bullets with zinc, but just using a 124grn mold and pouring pure melted zinc in it isn't one of them. You'd need to modify the design and the alloy. Kinda like ttx bullets for rifles are copper alloy, but they have groves unlike most lead bullets. This is to reduce fouling.

Maybe powdercoating them would help, maybe not. Given the low price of powdercoating paint and the large amount of bullets you got, I'd try it. But first, if possible, try a lighter charge. The slower the bullets, the less it should foul. I don't think 4.7grn of titegroup will push a 90grn bullet at 1240fps, I believe it would be quite faster than that (I'd be curious to chrony a few). I would try the lightest possible load that will still cycle your gun.

Good luck!
 
VinnyQC said:
That's actually zinc oxyde and zinc carbonate fouling I think. Pure zinc isn't blue like that, it's more silvery. That thin layer is totally normal and protects the zinc from further oxidization, but it's not as strong mechanically as the zinc itself.

Zinc also becomes very brittle when heated, a lot more than copper does. At room temperature, copper is slightly harder than zinc, but when you shoot a bullet, it rubs and deforms inside the barrel of your gun and becomes way too hot to stay strong. So they start breaking down, and you get the fouling you see.

I'm not sure who thought it would be good idea to make pure Zn bullets (casters in the 80s did it because it melts easily, only slightly higher than lead, but it never caught on), but I believe canam bought a batch to test them and decided against using them in their own reloads for the exact reason you see. No one sane wants to clean a barrel every 100 or so rounds, that just takes away the fun of shooting. I was gonna get myself a batch too until I saw they were zinc.

To be sure, it would be possible to make great bullets with zinc, but just using a 124grn mold and pouring pure melted zinc in it isn't one of them. You'd need to modify the design and the alloy. Kinda like ttx bullets for rifles are copper alloy, but they have groves unlike most lead bullets. This is to reduce fouling.

Maybe powdercoating them would help, maybe not. Given the low price of powdercoating paint and the large amount of bullets you got, I'd try it. But first, if possible, try a lighter charge. The slower the bullets, the less it should foul. I don't think 4.7grn of titegroup will push a 90grn bullet at 1240fps, I believe it would be quite faster than that (I'd be curious to chrony a few). I would try the lightest possible load that will still cycle your gun.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Vinny! You summed up pretty well what I thought might be happening, I agree no one wants to clean after 100 rounds, the photos may be playing a trick to look blue but all of it is pure silver, I don't have the best camera! I will try the lightest load I can that will still run my gun, have too many of these to just give up! I know there is ammo producer State side that makes Zinc bullet ammunition, called Zclean, I wonder if they experience the same situation. I'll do some experimenting and see what I can come up with.
 
VinnyQC said:
That's actually zinc oxyde and zinc carbonate fouling I think. Pure zinc isn't blue like that, it's more silvery. That thin layer is totally normal and protects the zinc from further oxidization, but it's not as strong mechanically as the zinc itself.

Zinc also becomes very brittle when heated, a lot more than copper does. At room temperature, copper is slightly harder than zinc, but when you shoot a bullet, it rubs and deforms inside the barrel of your gun and becomes way too hot to stay strong. So they start breaking down, and you get the fouling you see.

I'm not sure who thought it would be good idea to make pure Zn bullets (casters in the 80s did it because it melts easily, only slightly higher than lead, but it never caught on), but I believe canam bought a batch to test them and decided against using them in their own reloads for the exact reason you see. No one sane wants to clean a barrel every 100 or so rounds, that just takes away the fun of shooting. I was gonna get myself a batch too until I saw they were zinc.

To be sure, it would be possible to make great bullets with zinc, but just using a 124grn mold and pouring pure melted zinc in it isn't one of them. You'd need to modify the design and the alloy. Kinda like ttx bullets for rifles are copper alloy, but they have groves unlike most lead bullets. This is to reduce fouling.

Maybe powdercoating them would help, maybe not. Given the low price of powdercoating paint and the large amount of bullets you got, I'd try it. But first, if possible, try a lighter charge. The slower the bullets, the less it should foul. I don't think 4.7grn of titegroup will push a 90grn bullet at 1240fps, I believe it would be quite faster than that (I'd be curious to chrony a few). I would try the lightest possible load that will still cycle your gun.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Hodgdon has 4.7 grains of titegroup as a starting load pushing a 90 grain bullet at 1239fps according to their website. Should the composition of the bullet matter, or just the weight? Maybe slightly higher velocity due to the larger amount of rifling contact of the larger volume bullet? To say I'm still learning about reloading would be a bit of an understatement (I've barely started), so I'm just guessing?
 
Scotty454 said:
Hodgdon has 4.7 grains of titegroup as a starting load pushing a 90 grain bullet at 1239fps according to their website. Should the composition of the bullet matter, or just the weight? Maybe slightly higher velocity due to the larger amount of rifling contact of the larger volume bullet? To say I'm still learning about reloading would be a bit of an understatement (I've barely started), so I'm just guessing?
Click to expand...

The weight and the shape of the bullets both matter. The hodgdon's data are for speer "Gold Dot Hollow Point", which are made of lead, therefore have a shape different from your bullets. They're 1/3 smaller, so the amount of room in the case is much higher. Pressure is inversely proportional to volume (e.g. less volume = more pressure, if everything else is the same), so in order to not get as much pressure, you need a smaller charge.

In most cases it doesn't matter much, you just use the datas with the weight of your bullets (like an HP vs a RN, there isn't much difference), but if the material is different or the shape is very different (such as a cone nose hollow base vs FMJ), then you'll get different results.

I can't tell how fast your bullets were going in your gun without a chrony, but I'm 99.9999% certain you shouldn't load them with 4.7grn titegroup. If you look at your picture with 4 bullets, you see the shape of the Zn is similar to the 124grn (campro/berry?), so the pressure inside the chamber will be similar for a given load. So I'd say if you use the 125grn FMJ load datas (or campros 124grn load datas), you'll get similar pressures as the ones listed, so you should be safe, but very much higher speed because the bullet is lighter, so the bullet might start breaking down. I believe that's what happens in your gun.

So you can ether:
1-Bring all that Zn to the scrapyard (sucks when you have 6000 bullets);
2-Try the lightest possible load (as little as will cycle your gun);
3-Powdercoating (8$ from princess auto);
4-Option 2 and 3.

Good luck!
 
The lube idea would be something to try if it had a channel to hold it.
The powder coating is definitely worth a try, if it’s worth your time and effort.
I agree with VinneyQC on finding the lightest load to cycle your gun, burn clean and not keyhole.
Considering a cooler burning powder to accomplish this might be an idea as well as some powders burn hotter than others (titegroup for instance is known to be hot burning in the 9).
Not an option but if you could have put a gas check on it it might have helped.
I’m thinking they were dumped for a reason though...
 
VinnyQC said:
So you can ether:
1-Bring all that Zn to the scrapyard (sucks when you have 6000 bullets);
2-Try the lightest possible load (as little as will cycle your gun);
3-Powdercoating (8$ from princess auto);
4-Option 2 and 3.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Option 5: double the price you paid and list them in the ee:nest:
 
wasrupzuk said:
The lube idea would be something to try if it had a channel to hold it.
The powder coating is definitely worth a try, if it’s worth your time and effort.
I agree with VinneyQC on finding the lightest load to cycle your gun, burn clean and not keyhole.
Considering a cooler burning powder to accomplish this might be an idea as well as some powders burn hotter than others (titegroup for instance is known to be hot burning in the 9).
Not an option but if you could have put a gas check on it it might have helped.
I’m thinking they were dumped for a reason though...
Click to expand...

They definitely were dumped for a reason, and the fouling issue is most likely it, but at the price I thought it would be a fun project, and after my first range trip where accuracy was superb I thought I had struck gold! Ordered another Can, only to realize the issues after more rounds down the pipe! Ironic. I'll still try and experiment here with light loads and see if I can't come up with something that will work! I appreciate all the input guys.
 
So if a powder has a faster burn rate does that mean it's also burning hotter? I see VVN310 is #2 on the list I found and Titegroup #15, I see CFE pistol is #44, I have a generous supply of that I could try as well.
 
Craig0ry said:
So if a powder has a faster burn rate does that mean it's also burning hotter? I see VVN310 is #2 on the list I found and Titegroup #15, I see CFE pistol is #44, I have a generous supply of that I could try as well.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Faster is faster, hotter is hotter, not a 1:1 relationship.

Anyway what makes your barrel and your bullets heat is more the friction between the 2 than the heat of the gas.
 
VinnyQC said:
Not necessarily. Faster is faster, hotter is hotter, not a 1:1 relationship.

Anyway what makes your barrel and your bullets heat is more the friction between the 2 than the heat of the gas.
Click to expand...

Thats kind of what I was thinking, I'll take your advice and make up some lighter loads, I'll do them in increments of 50 since it takes a little before you can notice the fouling in the barrel. If I load any too light and they don't cycle I'll just pull them and the components will get re used.
 
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