6.5x55mm Swedish and IMR 4831

Fox

Fox

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Anyone know why there is such a variation in data for this powder?

I started with IMR data, they list a 143gr HPBT bullet with WLR primers in a Winchester case, I have WLR primers, PPU case and WLR primers with a 143gr ELD-X bullet. They list a starting load of 43.0gr with a max of 46.5gr with the pressure still under 45,000 CUP, meaning safe for a swedish Mauser. My rifle is an M38 rifle, not a 94 or a Krag.

I loaded up 5 of each 43, 44, 45, 46 and 46.5 to start out and see what groups best but now I see Nosler data that has a load range of 40.5-44.5 and old Lee data has 36.5-42 with Speer load data from 95 showing 42-46 as a load range.

Anyone know why there is such a weird range for the different sources? The Nosler data actually shows a velocity at max load at about the same as the max load from IMR with 2 less grains of powder and the same barrel length.

Anyone think I should be concerned at all about testing all of these loads?

I am loaded out to 3.15", this is the max that fits in the magazine and still off the lands, this will be a hunting load.

Any thoughts? Thanks
 
I suspect some are conservative based on the old Mauser/Krag actions.

FWIW
The new Speer 14 has 2 sections for 6.5 x 55 Swede, no 143 loads but they have 140 Spitz SP for both.
Old Mauser/Krag (Military Actions) lists 34-36gr
New (Strong Commercial Actions) lists 39-41gr

Hornady 10 has 143 ELD-X with 38.6-44.1gr but only comments regarding starting low with old actions.
 
Paul_T said:
I suspect some are conservative based on the old Mauser/Krag actions.

FWIW
The new Speer 14 has 2 sections for 6.5 x 55 Swede, no 143 loads but they have 140 Spitz SP for both.
Old Mauser/Krag (Military Actions) lists 34-36gr
New (Strong Commercial Actions) lists 39-41gr

Hornady 10 has 143 ELD-X with 38.6-44.1gr but only comments regarding starting low with old actions.
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Speer 12 says to reduce by 1 grain, so 41-45 for old actions and 42-46 for strong actions, are you sure you are not looking at H4831? Your marked load for the Honady 10 book align with the Hornady 4th edition load up to 2600fps for H4831.
 
I load for several swedes. I like to give myself a bit of load margin, for two reasons:

1) These rifles were built before NDE techniques came to be. Yes they are well built, but the possibility of a random flaw exists.
2) 6.5 X 55 are barrel burners, keeping the loads moderate reduces erosion substantially.

In the case listed above, I'd be tempted to limit my load trials to 43 -44 grains. Finally, its been a while, but you may want to check the case capacity of the NNY brass. Seems to me that its quite thick, which may impose additional load reductions.
 
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Fox said:
Speer 12 says to reduce by 1 grain, so 41-45 for old actions and 42-46 for strong actions, are you sure you are not looking at H4831? Your marked load for the Honady 10 book align with the Hornady 4th edition load up to 2600fps for H4831.
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Nope - Speer 14 lists 140gr 6.5mm Spitz SP at the values I posted for IMR4831. Nothing for a 143gr projectile

For H4831(SC) they are higher: 37-39 and 41-43
 
cosmic said:
I load for several swedes. I like to give myself a bit of load margin, for two reasons:

1) These rifles were built before NDE techniques came to be. Yes they are well built, but the possibility of a random flaw exists.
2) 6.5 X 55 are barrel burners, keeping the loads moderate reduces erosion substantially.

In the case listed above, I'd be tempted to limit my load trials to 43 -44 grains. Finally, its been a while, but you may want to check the case capacity of the NNY brass. Seems to me that its quite thick, which may impose additional load reductions.
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Would you have a problem shooting Hornady Superformance? Not looking to make a screamer but trying to figure out why half the manuals show 46-47gr max and some at 42-44gr max with the same pressure in CUP quoted. I did notice that the loads with the 46-47gr max are with WLR primers, might they be a lower pressure primer?

I was thinking about the thickness of the PPU brass but the remington has physically small outside dimensions at the base, so the internals should not be too far off.

I have no problem loading a few more batching, maybe starting adding 41 and 42gr to the mix.

Just looking to get it up to 2650fps or so, not trying to push it up over 2700 or getting into the modern action loads of 2800fps.

I guess I am wondering why if the Euro spec for safe pressure for these actions is 55,000 PSI and SAAMI for these actions has a spec of 51,000 PSI why do we need to load down to 46,000 PSI? We tend not to load down for a Mauser 98, even though they are the same age, the steel does not change. Not saying they should be loaded up to 308 Win pressures but asking the question.
 
Hitzy said:
46.5 IMR4831 with a 143 is pretty warm load for old guns.
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Define old? Is the 1940s old? 1960s? 1890s? I do remember people telling me not to shoot modern ammunition in a Winchester 1897 from the late 20s, shoots heavy loads just great, the gunsmith said it was good to go for anything that was not steel.

pzkw108 said:
Because 6.5mm is small bore dia. vs a fairly large case cap.

The swede might not be a "barrel burner" but it certainly not easy on barrel like a 308Win
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Is a 30/06 a barrel burner? I have been told that the 6.5x55mm Mauser is a very mild gun on the barrel, even at 2700fps, the 264 Win Mag was a barrel burner but ran a 140gr bullet up to 3200 fps, much faster.
 
The 6.5 bullet has a very long bearing surface. The small differences in barrels and chambers tends to result in a broad range of min and max, depending on what rile is tested.

I have a M36 that blows the primer on a START load.

Start low (say 41) and shoot 5 shot groups in 0.5 gr increments and see what groups well, where you reach the intended velocity and if you see any pressure signs.
 
Ganderite said:
The 6.5 bullet has a very long bearing surface. The small differences in barrels and chambers tends to result in a broad range of min and max, depending on what rile is tested.

I have a M36 that blows the primer on a START load.

Start low (say 41) and shoot 5 shot groups in 0.5 gr increments and see what groups well, where you reach the intended velocity and if you see any pressure signs.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I just loaded up another 5 at 41gr and 5 at 42gr, will see what I get for groups as well as velocity. If I am stuck with 2550 factory specs so be it but I know the factory stuff is significantly downgraded even for the 96 action. I know my gun is a Husky M38, so not a really old one, 1940s vintage, I will start out at 41 and see what happens on the Chronograph, as well as the other pressure signs and go from there.

This gun is not a cut down 96, the throat is shorter, I cannot actually chamber RN 160gr military surplus but the ELD-X loaded to the max of the magazine cycles well.

Waiting on a new set of rings for this sporter and some weather that is warmer than the cold side of the moon before going out and testing.

Thanks guys.
 
Fox said:
Define old? Is the 1940s old? 1960s? 1890s? I do remember people telling me not to shoot modern ammunition in a Winchester 1897 from the late 20s, shoots heavy loads just great, the gunsmith said it was good to go for anything that was not steel.



Is a 30/06 a barrel burner? I have been told that the 6.5x55mm Mauser is a very mild gun on the barrel, even at 2700fps, the 264 Win Mag was a barrel burner but ran a 140gr bullet up to 3200 fps, much faster.
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A '38 is still a '96 action design with it's poor gas handling, that is the difference between it and a '98.
A 96/38 will tend to grenade if a case fails, that's why the warnings are there.
Anything you work up in the winter with IMR4831 will be hotter in warmer weather as well.
 
Hitzy said:
A '38 is still a '96 action design with it's poor gas handling, that is the difference between it and a '98.
A 96/38 will tend to grenade if a case fails, that's why the warnings are there.
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Yes, but the load data is still below SAAMI specifications of 45000 CUP, so they should not do anything at all to the action. I understand if the action has cracks or voids but we are not talking about an action made is 1896 but rather made is 1942, so the process of making the action and the quality of the steel is up to the standards of 1942 with a load designed for a much weaker action in the Krag.

I have a 98 action as well, a Parker Hale, I know how the gas escapes on that action but one thing has always floored me, no new actions have ways of venting gas like the 96 or 98 military actions, then again we do not have brass that has been corroding for years or brass made with really sloppy tolerances anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, hence why starting out lower than the IMR published data but still trying to figure out why the actions are considered weaker than the testing that has been done specifically for them.
 
Fox said:
Yes, but the load data is still below SAAMI specifications of 45000 CUP, so they should not do anything at all to the action. I understand if the action has cracks or voids but we are not talking about an action made is 1896 but rather made is 1942, so the process of making the action and the quality of the steel is up to the standards of 1942 with a load designed for a much weaker action in the Krag.

I have a 98 action as well, a Parker Hale, I know how the gas escapes on that action but one thing has always floored me, no new actions have ways of venting gas like the 96 or 98 military actions, then again we do not have brass that has been corroding for years or brass made with really sloppy tolerances anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, hence why starting out lower than the IMR published data but still trying to figure out why the actions are considered weaker than the testing that has been done specifically for them.
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Howa/Vanguard and Weatherby rifles all have excellent gas venting designs on par with a '98.
On the other end of the spectrum Rem 700 goes the other way... rather then venting they contain the gas until pressure drops when the bullet leaves the barrel.
These days case failure comes from user error, not poor materials....that risk is always there.
There are better 6.5x55 rifles to chase velocity with then a 96/38.
 
Can I jump in and ask advice on my application? I'm kinda nervous about loading for an older action.

I have a Carl Gustov 1913 with the original barrel thats 18 1/2" . It shoots about a 1" group at 100 yrds after I bedded the action and using "Century Arms" 139gr SP shells. (I think they are Yugoslavian made.)

I have the Speers #14 reload book with the section for old military actions, I bought it because my other reloading books don't mention the military actions for the 6.5x55.
Hornady .264" 140gr SP interlock bullets,
IMR 4350 and Varget, (two of the powders listed in the Speers book)
Federal large rifle primers.

To establish the COL for my intance, could I take an empty case and a bullet and let the closing bolt seat the bullet up to the start of the lands, then remove and measure COL? Then compare that measurement to what is stated in the loading book and adjust accordingly?
Or, just measure the Century ammo that I know works and copy that measurement?
Or, just use the measurement from the Speers book of 3.000"?

Thanks.
 
Rick65Cat said:
Can I jump in and ask advice on my application? I'm kinda nervous about loading for an older action.

I have a Carl Gustov 1913 with the original barrel thats 18 1/2" . It shoots about a 1" group at 100 yrds after I bedded the action and using "Century Arms" 139gr SP shells. (I think they are Yugoslavian made.)

I have the Speers #14 reload book with the section for old military actions, I bought it because my other reloading books don't mention the military actions for the 6.5x55.
Hornady .264" 140gr SP interlock bullets,
IMR 4350 and Varget, (two of the powders listed in the Speers book)
Federal large rifle primers.

To establish the COL for my intance, could I take an empty case and a bullet and let the closing bolt seat the bullet up to the start of the lands, then remove and measure COL? Then compare that measurement to what is stated in the loading book and adjust accordingly?
Or, just measure the Century ammo that I know works and copy that measurement?
Or, just use the measurement from the Speers book of 3.000"?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You can adjust the seating depth to fit your chamber and magazine using the method you described, or you can use the recommended COL from a manual. Either will work and if this is your first reloading experience then keep it uncomplicated. You can get fancy later.
 
jethunter said:
You can adjust the seating depth to fit your chamber and magazine using the method you described, or you can use the recommended COL from a manual. Either will work and if this is your first reloading experience then keep it uncomplicated. You can get fancy later.
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Thanks, I used the empty case/bolt method on my .204 and .223 but those were both new commercial grade rifles. I just didn't want to blow up a 100 year old gun in my face by making a stupid mistake.
 
Hitzy said:
Howa/Vanguard and Weatherby rifles all have excellent gas venting designs on par with a '98.
On the other end of the spectrum Rem 700 goes the other way... rather then venting they contain the gas until pressure drops when the bullet leaves the barrel.
These days case failure comes from user error, not poor materials....that risk is always there.
There are better 6.5x55 rifles to chase velocity with then a 96/38.
Click to expand...

We are not talking about chasing velocity, there are tons of different cartridges too, it is a matter of verifying what is safe for a given firearm.
The venting has nothing to do with over pressure, it has to do with cartridge failure, a case head separation due to a bad case or bad headspace is a problem but is not generally the problem of an over pressure load but rather bad components, hence why military rifles had the gas channels and most sporter guns do not, we do not shoot iffy ammo from the other side of the world.

jethunter said:
It would be knocking on the door of SAAMI maximum.
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That is exactly why it is the max, it is the max for IMR which is listed on their site as just under the SAAMI max of 45000 CUP, which is what is specified due to the Krag and military mauser actions, the SAAMI spec is actually lower than the Euro standard. Is it not safe to shoot a 308 Win at 60,000 PSI all day long? SAAMI spec for the 308 Win is 62,000 PSI.
 
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