Why aren't there more modern black shotgun designs?

Master-G

Master-G

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I know there are a ton of new designs, especially from Turkey, but none to me have the proven reliability of the ubiquitous Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500/590. I've owned a KSG and currently own a UTS-15 and while they're great fun at the range, they just don't seem to me to be suitable for a serious-use gun. I was wondering why we haven't seen any other really successful designs in this area for years—the 870 was introduced in 1950 and the 500 in 1960. I know they're both well-respected and reliable but they are awkward to shoot if you've got shorter arms, are hard to mount optics on, and have relatively low capacity compared to some of the other double mag-tube designs. The DP-12 might be a contender—from what I've read it's well-made, but it is heavy and the two shots per pump would take getting used to.

Is it because the use of patrol carbines has become more widespread? No question that they offer many advantages over a shotgun. Or is it that the Rem/Mossberg duopoly is too hard to crack? Or have I overlooked some designs? What are your thoughts?
 
Master-G said:
I was thinking of the Benelli, but as high-quality as it is, it didn't seem like that much of a revolutionary design.
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Its the Benelli M4's gas system that's the revolutionary part of its design. Remington really were the ones who advanced semi auto shotgun technology when they decided to put a gas piston on the tube magazine. It was the first major step in reliable semi auto shotguns from the previous recoil operated systems. Then Benelli comes along and decided to create a regulated gas system called ARGO. Auto Regulating Gas Operated. This is when Semi-Auto shotguns became very reliable. Most major manufactures of as piston guns have made their own version of a gas regulation system. Other than gas, there is Inertia which is similar to recoil operated just it has an Inertia spring which greatly increases its reliability against the old recoil operated guns. Its advantage is, there is no gas system so the gun is lighter and easier to clean. However the gun relies on recoil in order to operate its system so adding anything that increases the weight and using light loads can cause the gun to fail which is why you don't see Inertia guns too often in the tactical field. Pretty much the Benelli M2 Tactical is the only one I can think of which they took the M2 Field and turned it into a tactical offering.

I'm assuming the reason why there hasn't been much for advancement is because there has been nothing to come along that's much better. Just like how their Patrol carbine is as old of a design as their shotguns are.
 
shelby said:
Except maybe something like a full auto Thompson SMG with a 50 round drum? As long as you hold the trigger down once you pull it...
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Maybe in Call of duty or something.
Hit probability is still higher with the shotgun.
Once recoil starts up with any automatic and consecutive shots it's not easy. Anyone who has shot full auto can attest to that even with a pistol cartridge.
One pull of the trigger and you get 9 submissiles (assuming 'oo' Buck) in each shell each with a high kill potential. So every shell you fire is 9 instant shots per pull of the trigger, all going in the same general direction with a spreading cone of hit probability.
My old Model 12 has no trigger disconnect, so I can fire as fast as I can work the pump with the trigger held back. That is 6x9 sub missiles fired in less than 2 seconds if I'm quick. That's unsurpassed firepower at close distance. Do the math on the rate of fire. That is the definition of violence lol

There's a reason why the US shotguns found their way into combat in WWI, WWII and up to today even for close quarters. There is no other weapon that has that much instant knock down power under 50 meters.
The shotgun is a limited firearm but nothing can compare to it at close range. One of its only major faults is ammo capacity before having to reload.
 
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I wouldn't consider limited ammo a fault in a shotgun. Not too many hunter/police/military users demand a large capacity magazine in a shotgun. There is a place for it: competition, trench clearing, street sweeping, or general pissing around at the range blasting stuff. The added capacity has the fault of being large, long, heavy, and not overly practical.

Actually aim when you shoot and keep the mag topped up after each shot.

*bang*, reload. *bang, bang*, reload, reload.
 
BeaverMeat said:
I wouldn't consider limited ammo a fault in a shotgun. Not too many hunter/police/military users demand a large capacity magazine in a shotgun. There is a place for it: competition, trench clearing, street sweeping, or general pissing around at the range blasting stuff. The added capacity has the fault of being large, long, heavy, and not overly practical.

Actually aim when you shoot and keep the mag topped up after each shot.

*bang*, reload. *bang, bang*, reload, reload.
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Like I said the ONLY major fault ;)
I'm a huge fan of the shotgun as a defense/offense firearm. I only have one though; Model 12 in 12ga with a 20" barrel. The only one I'll ever need!

OP to honestly answer the question, because there is not much more you can do with a shotgun. They're about as developed as they can get.
Most modern attempts at drastic evolutions of the classic scatter gun end up failing ie the AA12, Neostead 2000 etc and they go back to the old school design principles for good reason. Mostly because they work all the time, every time. Reliability is the key to a good shotgun design. That's essentially all it has to be no matter what.
 
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Master-G said:
I was thinking of the Benelli, but as high-quality as it is, it didn't seem like that much of a revolutionary design.
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Well they managed to build a shotgun that a crayon eating marine can’t break, that in its self is revolutionary :p
 
The biggest thing holding tactical shotguns back is the circa 1860s shotshell architecture.

A modern, more size efficient, more feed friendly, higher pressure shell would allow you to build a much better tactical shotgun around it.
 
Master-G said:
I know there are a ton of new designs, especially from Turkey, but none to me have the proven reliability of the ubiquitous Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500/590. I've owned a KSG and currently own a UTS-15 and while they're great fun at the range, they just don't seem to me to be suitable for a serious-use gun. I was wondering why we haven't seen any other really successful designs in this area for years—the 870 was introduced in 1950 and the 500 in 1960. I know they're both well-respected and reliable but they are awkward to shoot if you've got shorter arms, are hard to mount optics on, and have relatively low capacity compared to some of the other double mag-tube designs. The DP-12 might be a contender—from what I've read it's well-made, but it is heavy and the two shots per pump would take getting used to.

Is it because the use of patrol carbines has become more widespread? No question that they offer many advantages over a shotgun. Or is it that the Rem/Mossberg duopoly is too hard to crack? Or have I overlooked some designs? What are your thoughts?
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Honestly, there's very little that can't be overcome with training.

The shotgun has a fairly niche role, but not as narrow as some would expect.

Ammo capacity, yes, but if you run out after 6-8 rounds, #### has gone seriously sideways. Gunfights don't go like the movies.

The biggest detractor for the standard pump/auto shotgun, in Canada is the legality of leaving the thing loaded, should you ever need to use it in a serious social engagement. A mag fed rifle is MUCH quicker to get into action when things go bump in the night. Getting 2 rounds in the thing (one in the chamber and one in the tube) is reasonably quick, but that's about it in an emergency. Loading a DP 12, UTAS? Forget it. Might as well load a SxS or O/U.

BUT, If i HAD to get in a gunfight in my hallway at 2:00am, a loaded 500/590 or 870 is a serious contender. IF i was forced to empty the thing, im probably dead anyway.


In a gunfight.

Pistols put holes in people (maybe)
Rifles put holes through people
Shotguns leave pieces of people on the floor, and you will have to call someone in to squeegee that #### up.
 
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not sure we need any new ones.

I'd prefer to see more return to old school quality with the two classic pumps combined with modern precision manufacturing - vs - new designs.

Many of the aftermarket parts, especially for the 870 have continued to improve it, making it even harder to beat.
 
In a CQB situation, nothing beats a shotgun. You can be off with your aim a bit, and you're still going to make a mess. Not so with a pistol, or rifle, or SMG.

I think once they work on better shell technology, we'll see the modern "mag fed shotty's" take over the tactical market. I've put 500 or so rounds down range with my MK12, and I'm still running into occasional feed issues. Every time I check the shell responsible, it is out of round by a whole bunch! In a situation where it really counts, you don't want that on your mind!
 
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